We’ve got another exciting guest teed up for this week. I’m talking with Sean Brock, a neurofeedback expert and the owner of Neuro Colorado. Now I’ll be honest that I had a lot to learn in this interview because I wasn’t terribly well versed on the science behind neurofeedback. In the interview, Sean shares the fascinating history behind neurofeedback and how it’s evolved from training cats to helping humans regulate their brain waves. We get into how neurofeedback works and its longer-term benefits.
Also, we end the interview by taking a turn and talking about EMDR therapy and how it is somewhat similar but distinct from neurofeedback. Then, we get into Internal Family Systems Therapy (IFS), which I think is just a fascinating form of psychotherapy.
Now, as I just mentioned, I didn’t have a lot of knowledge on neurofeedback going into the interview, and a lot of that stemmed from some of the controversy surrounding its effectiveness in treating ADHD. As Sean is the owner of a neurofeedback facility, it is quite understandable that he is very bullish on the research showing its effectiveness. And based on my conversation with him it seems well warranted, especially with the caveat he gave in the interview that neurofeedback is not a magic process but requires guidance from a qualified practitioner.
That said, while I think the science of neurofeedback looks very promising at this point, take the interview with a grain of salt and be aware that not everyone is convinced of its level of effectiveness. While promising neurofeedback isn’t for everyone and it’s general accessibility still has a ways to go.
Also, this isn’t a case of doing one thing or the other; neurofeedback can work alongside medication and other therapies as well.
William Curb: Can you tell me a little bit about neurofeedback and maybe even like a little history of it? Because I feel like I don't even know if this is a new technique or not, or if it's something that has more of a longer basis and I just didn't know about it.
Sean Brock: Neurofeedback is really cool and it has been around for almost 70 years in its early origins. And so originally our field, we're training cats and monkeys and animals to increase or decrease certain amounts of brainwaves by implanting electrodes into the brain. So it's kind of like to me like kind of creepy origins, but still really cool.
William Curb: I feel like a lot of science is that way.
Sean Brock: Yeah, exactly. And there were some fascinating experiments early on when a bunch of pilots were getting sick from all of the jet fuel that they were experiencing. And so they were trying to do experiments with different cats and things to see how long they could tolerate exposure to these toxins. And there were some cats that had been trained with neurofeedback to create this brainwave called SMR and none of those cats died.
And all of the other cats died with exposure. And so that was kind of this first big sort of revelation about, wow, maybe this can have really substantial impacts on not just cats, but on these pilots and then people in general. And so that sort of was one of the main things that got this field rolling. Technology has improved significantly since then. And so we're able to have lots more information than we used to have a decently things, but neurofeedback in general, it's nothing magic.
It's just a form of operant condition. We start with a quantitative EEG, which is basically put a cap on your head, measure your brainwaves at 19 different sites, take that data, and we compare it to a statistical norm. So we just say, Hey, how does your brain compare to all the other men or women your age? And we can see areas where you have more electrical activity in these frequencies or less. And then maybe communication speed and timing issues or differences.
And then out of those differences match up with symptomology folks, and that's sort of the basis of a treatment plan that we might come up with. And then it really is in real time, putting the electrodes on your scalp, and then in real time, seeing how much certain brain waves you're creating, and then learning to control those yourself through feedback from like, so somebody said, Hey, Sean, I want you to create more 15 to 22 Hertz activity in your left pride or love.
Like, I have no idea if I'm doing it or not or our, but if you put an electrode over the left pride or love, in real time, you can see how much of these frequencies you're creating. And then based on kind of a reward based system, every time I create more than a threshold, the computer says, Yeah, you're doing it. Over time, we can learn how to get into a particular brain state. So it will change the way our brains function.
William Curb: Is this like targeting when you're like in a session, are you targeting like specific ADHD symptoms then, and being like, okay, we're going to try and get brain waves that will mitigate what's going on?
Sean Brock: Yeah, exactly. So from that quantitative EEG, we'll be able to identify sort of what type of ADHD someone asks, or even if they have ADHD. And so the classic ADHD presentation in the brain, at least electrically, is too much slow wave activity in the frontal lobe. If you have too much, we call it theta. So that's like four to seven Hertz, three to seven Hertz activity. If you have way too much of that, your brain is kind of going into this, like, J dream sort of state called the hypnagogic state.
And it's basically I'm not really super present right now, kind of daydreaming me and out there. Yes, that's the type of ADHD someone would have, we would put some electrodes on the scalp over the frontal lobe. And in real time, we can see how much theta they're producing. And then they can learn to create less theta. And as they do that, their ADHD symptoms go down.
William Curb: I love this idea too, that you're using being able to like kind of identify types of ADHD. Are these what you're finding matching up with like the more classical model of like there's inattentive hyperactive and combined, or is you finding different classifications now?
Sean Brock: I think it's quite different, actually, for a very long time, most of our diagnoses for mental health conditions were all based on symptoms. And so if you have this cluster of symptoms, then we can diagnose you are not diagnosed with a particular mental health disorder. The brain historically is kind of in a black box, like we haven't been able to see what was actually happening. And it's one of the only sort of healthcare fields where we haven't really tried for a long period of time, we haven't really tried to identify what's the source. So instead of saying like, I have chest painism, we would want to identify why is that heartburn or you have an heart attack, like what's going on.
But with the brain would just say, well, you have these symptoms, so therefore you must have this thing. When we look at the brain's electrical activity, there are five or six main subtypes of ADHD or dissociative disorders or ways that it can present in the brain. And they're all quite different. So the oncology is very different or where it's coming from in the brain is different. But the symptom set may be really similar. And so we need to target specifically what's happening in the brain, not just say, well, you have ADHD, therefore you must have too much theta.
William Curb: I've been writing a bit about how diagnosis works recently. And it is frustrating how subjective it can be when I'm looking at like, oh, how this works. And then I'm also like, with people with self diagnosis, and I'm also like, I understand the need for the equity of this, but also like, we got to watch out, like, maybe you have a sleep disorder and it's making these symptoms or you have trauma and it's making these symptoms. And so
Sean Brock: Exactly,
William Curb: I mean, if you're doing stuff that helps you great, do that. But also the brain is so complex, we don't know enough.
Sean Brock: Yeah, I think especially if we're trying to do interventions or treatment that isn't just behavioral. Right. Like, if you're struggling with organization and you find a great organizational system, and that really helps you navigate life, fantastic. I don't care if you call it ADHD or not. But when we're looking at medication or neurofeedback or neuro stimulation, things that that have relatively precise, even by neural beats and like photo stimulation, things like that, you can do yourself a disservice if we assume ADHD is all the same thing. There are a lot of things that it's not so you can actually exacerbate your symptoms or increase anxiety significantly.
William Curb: One of the things that is just making me think about too here is like, well, I do agree with like a medication first approach for a lot of people. Medication is so hard to pin down what will work for what person. And it's a lot of experimentation at this point. And I can see if we're looking at things coming from different angles, like, oh, yeah, that medication is not going to work for you because you have this other subtype that we're not even aware of.
Sean Brock: Main sub types. I'll kind of go through it. We'll get a little bit into the leads here. Too much data, which is a slow wave for that kind of that Hypnagogic state. Typically, it presents in the front of the head, it can be kind of anywhere, excess alpha, which is the next brain wave faster. And it has a different feel. Excess frontal alpha, we tend to go blank. And then come back as opposed to theta, which is more of like a daydreamy, like you sort of like leaves and then kind of come back. We have temporal lobe alpha. So with alpha shows up in the temporal lobe or auditory processing centers, basically go offline. And it also causes the frontal lobe to go offline.
So we have a dissociative tendency that you're tapping from that. And then there's a brain wave rhythm called mu that shows up in the sensory motor strip. So if you like our headbands for our headphones right now, are going directly over the sensory motor strip in the brain, this mu rhythm is created when our sensory motor strip goes offline, essentially, when there's no sensory output.
And it says, I don't need to function. You can develop this mu rhythm. And those folks with ADHD tend to do really well with digits and doodling and things like that. So if there's some physical movement, it stops the mu rhythm, which causes the frontal lobe to go offline. Those are the predominant well, the one other is it's too much beta, which is a fast brain wave frequency, but it's a specific kind.
It's called spindle and beta. And so it's a very fast wave, but it's actually rhythmic and harmonic sort of like the slower waves, but it's just fast. And it's it's another way that the brain is just affecting that's a really common brain waves when we have too much GABA in the system, it creates this faster dissociative experience. And then the last one is really a subtype except that it's measuring slow wave first fast wave.
So it's measuring the ratio between theta and beta. And if there's too much data compared to beta, we have a really difficult time engaging to think so that our brain wants to leave. And there are some others when you start mixing in anxiety and you start mixing in trauma and dissociation from trauma, hyper vigilant systems where we're like, our focus is so on other things that we can't pay attention to the thing in front of us, right? If my nervous system thinks I'm going to die at any moment or be attacked, I'm not going to really focus on the book I bring. I wouldn't call that ADHD. I'd call it anxiety or trauma, but similar sometimes.
So yeah, those are like the from the brain side, the main ways we differentiate ADHD and the treatments are a little bit different from our side with neurofeedback or nerve stimulation. I am not a physician. And so I can't tread too much into the medicine side of things, but we do know that stimulant medications increase fast wave activity and decrease slow wave activity.
Right. So if we have it's that theta to beta ratio is a lot of theta and not enough beta when you take a stimulant medication, it changes that ratio and we feel normal. Somebody that already has an appropriate ratio, you give them a stimulant medication, the beta goes very high and the theta goes very low and they can feel very racy like way too stimulating for them.
William Curb: Yeah. And it makes a lot of sense that like people respond to medication very differently and it's very individualistic for what works for some people. When you're getting medication, they often will ask if anyone in your family has ADHD because you often respond to medication similarly, which probably would mean that you'd have a similar subtype of ADHD. Yeah.
Sean Brock: Yeah. And we do see that especially like it's funny because we'll do the QEG assessments with kids or teens or whatever and it's very clear that they have a slow wave disorder or something that we would call ADHD and as we're describing it, almost always want at least one of the parents like raising their hand of like, yeah, yes, yes, yes. There's a pretty high level of I think genetic components as that comes down.
William Curb: So if someone was going in for one of these treatments, what would that actually look like? You talked a little bit about doing stuff with computer and reward system, but I'm just kind of curious what people would expect to have happen.
Sean Brock: There are two kind of disparate approaches that we can take. So the classic approach, maybe more common approach is neurofeedback. And so we start with that assessment like I described. So we'll measure the brain waves, look at the raw data, compare it to their peers, see what's different for them electrically. And then if those overlap with symptoms, we'll decide, hey, we want to try and stop the excess alpha and the temporal lobes or the state and follow whatever it is. And then we can make our software kind of do whatever.
So the client would be sitting in a chair with some electrodes on their head, looking at a TV screen. In real time, we're measuring and recording their brain's electrical activity underneath those electrodes and those sites. And then we'll create, it's kind of boring, honestly, like in its presentation and how it looks, but imagine a, in the most simplest form, imagine a thermometer with a line on it and then the color and the thermometer goes up and down.
And so if we're trying to decrease theta, let's say, anytime that color goes below the line, the computer beeps. And that's it saying you did it. Like you created less than, less than we're asking you to. And typically with their feedback, it starts out as like an accident. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just watching and observing. And then it goes down and it beeps or by character on the screen moves or whatever the feedback is that says, hey, you're doing it. And then it's like, well, what did I do? It's like, wait for the next one, right?
And then wait for the next one. And then over time, in with coaching, hopefully from therapists, you're learning, oh, every time I use my brain in this way, or I think about this thing, or my body feels like this, I'm getting more of these rewards, more of these beats. And when I'm not paying attention, I'm thinking about cheeseburgers or I'm like, somewhere else, I'm not. And so we start to learn, oh, okay, so it starts to feel like this. And then we get more specific and more specific and more specific. And a treatment plan for neurofeedback is typically around 40 appointments.
And you're coming two to three times a week is a typical treatment plan for working with us. And it really is just over time learning how to regulate and control your brain in a way that gets rid of your sometimes or minimize the system. The cool thing about neurofeedback is that we're not, we are changing your brain in that you're learning a new skill, creating a new neural network, practicing it, establishing it. But all of us change brain states all day long. So we're in a really different brain state now than we would be if we were like watching Netflix at night, right, or falling asleep or studying for a math exam.
And so we're simply teaching the person, hey, how do you create this specific brain state that will allow you to focus? What ADHD has all kinds of awesome things to it as well. And so we don't always want to be super focused, super engaged, dialed in. It's like we want to be able to be creative or spacey or impulse of some times and whatever. And so we can be moving out of that state.
William Curb: After say these 40 sessions, what kind of result would you expect people have? Is it something where it's like people are like, oh, yeah, I feel like I don't have ADHD anymore. Is it just like a mitigation? And is it a long term effect? Or is it kind of like something that like after a few years people are like, oh, yeah, I should do that again.
Sean Brock: Typically, it's a long term effect. We're doing operant conditioning, right? It's the same as like training a dog to sit down and lay down and roll up, right? It's like giving them treats when they do the behavior we're asking them to do and then they learn the skill.
And then you don't need the treats anymore. Now, all of our cell phones, you know, every social media app uses randomized reward operant conditioning to train us to doom scroll all night instead of go to bed. So they are training us to need this thing or do this behavior. And we're all complicit, right?
And this thing is really powerful. So when we're doing neurofeedback, we're teaching somebody this new brain state and then they're practicing in it. Ideally, you feel better when you're in that state. And so you continue to use it and it becomes a really natural part of your life. It's a relatively easy brain state to get into and one that you can also choose to step out when you want to. So it should be pretty long term. With all operant conditioning, there can be some extinguishing that happens over time.
So some folks will come back in for, you know, and if you want to call it a tune up or a refresher or whatever. And then that actually really strengthens operant conditioning results. And so, but typically we don't see people code back to the client once they finish. And it seems to be like a long term thing that they've learned.
William Curb: Where's the like research on this right now? It seems like this is something that has a lot of techniques that you can like see the results from. It's very easy to be like, yes, this is working. No, this isn't. So it's kind of curious where that research is at right now.
Sean Brock: Yeah. So there is a lot of research out there and some of it's good and some of it isn't very good. Most of the research indicates that neurofeedback is pretty helpful. There's some things to navigate in this. One of the kind of big things historically was that the American Academy of Pediatrics looked at sort of all of the research for ADHD treatment for kids. They looked at all of the neurofeedback research and they think they have five or six levels of evidence-based treatment from the highest level of it's absolutely evidence-based treatment to there's no evidence that says this works at all at the bottom level.
After the meta-analysis, they put neurofeedback in the highest category of evidence-based medicine for the treatment of ADHD in kids. The only other treatment that was in that category was medication. Those were the two in that level and then you get into CBT and like, you know, different other types of management systems that are lower down on scale. There has not been as much robust research on other middle health conditions, but the process of how neurofeedback works is the same and there's millions of research studies on operant condition.
And so we know that operant conditioning works and neurofeedback uses that tool and we've seen quite a bit of evidence that it's very helpful and it does work. Some of the nuances come when it's hard to do a double blind study of neurofeedback because the EEG, like a clinician that would be running the software, would know fake EEG from real EEG and we would be able to see that somebody, did they blink or cough and it totally disrupted the EEG or they did and nothing happened.
Like so so their sham EEG studies or sham neurofeedback studies to treat that double blind is very difficult. The other component is that the software doesn't do anything magical, right? It doesn't like just sitting down and having a screen get bright or dark or a computer beep but you doesn't do anything. So there are some clinics or folks that use neurofeedback that I don't think really understand how it works, and they put an electrode on your head and they turn it on, they leave the room, and they come back 30 minutes later and turn it off and say, all right, see you later.
Maybe you learned something, but probably not. And so to have good effects from neurofeedback, you have to have a therapist that is really engaged and helping you realize operant conditioning takes an operator, it takes somebody choosing on purpose to do something, and then learning how to do that thing. And I think when that process is in place, it's super effective.
William Curb: That also made me think, but there's a lot of like ADHD treatment plans come with like a multimodal approach. And would that be something this is like a therapy on its own, where do you think it would be part of a bigger treatment plan, like this and medication or something?
Sean Brock: Yep. So a lot of our folks come to us on medication. Some of them come to us because they don't want to be on medication, especially for their kids. They may not want their kids on medication. And we find that many of our folks that come on medication either decrease the amount of medication they're taking or stop altogether. Some of them stay on it in a bunch of our clients don't ever start if they need it. It's not to say that I'm not anti stimulant medication, but if we don't have to take it, that's great. And if you do, that's okay. Like neurofeedback is a great adjunct to lots of different things, whether that's counseling approaches, that's that's our bench, we're all counselors.
So we think it's awesome. Other types of organizational approaches, there's lots of other biohacking, you know, types of approaches to the increased clarity. There's ways to like chunk your date like time chunks, there's all sorts of stop interruptions, like all these things in neurofeedback can be really complementary to other systems that you're trying to try to it's sort of like in large part of things, it turns the volume down or the intensity down on some of those symptoms. And so many of these other modalities then become more approachable or effective.
William Curb: Often why I tell people to like start with medication is it's like, there's so many things you can do. But if you're a medicated, those things are so much easier to do.
Sean Brock: Yes.
William Curb: And it sounds like it's very similar approach.
Sean Brock: Yep. Exactly.
William Curb: Is this also something that adults can approach as well?
Sean Brock: Yeah, great question. It definitely is. It feels like, I mean, podcasts like yours, but I feel like all over like adults are finding you realizing that they have ADHD and they've wondered why they have struggled in certain areas in life. And it's awesome to see people realize that for me, one of the coolest things is doing those quantitative EEGs and really being able to see the brain and to be able to point out like, this is legit. Like the way that you're feeling under your experience of yourself in the world is not, you didn't make it up.
Actually, objective data that says your brain compared to your peers is real different. And of course, almost impossible for you to do XYZ, right? Or why you really struggle in this particular area overall. It's super valid for people to get to experience that and then say, hey, and there's things we can do. We can help change how you feel. I love the like, whoa, it's not my fault. How do I feel?
William Curb: Yeah, well, because I know so many people that are like, I think it's ADHD, but what if it isn't and I'm just super lazy? And it's like, it's probably not the case.
Sean Brock: But probably if you care that much, and if you try really hard, and then your answer in the end is I'm lazy, like that's a non sequester, right? Like there's something else going on there. Yeah. If you're really lazy, you wouldn't care or try.
William Curb: It's a whole different ballgame of like when you're feeling lazy versus when you're feeling like there's an executive function issue.
Sean Brock: I also think that our culture, our world has increased the demands on our brain and increased demands on our attention by incredible proportions. I think back to my childhood in the 80s and 90s, and it's like, we're listening to music and stuff. There were some TV shows, but like from then until now, massive shift in how much information we're trying to process and handle and the discomfort that comes for us in particular now when we're not constantly being stimulated by something and so that boredom and the discomfort that comes from it has really shifted.
I think how everybody's brains are working, but I think also it shifted our expectation of what we should be able to do. I should be able to pay attention for 10 hours straight out of computer, right? You're like, really? No one in the history of the world has ever had to do that. Yeah. Like I think we're asking our brains to do something extremely exceptional and then we've assumed that that's the norm, but it isn't.
William Curb: If people were interested in starting to try and do some neurofeedback, where should they look? As you mentioned, again, not all practitioners are going to be equal. How do they find someone that's qualified?
Sean Brock: Neurofeedback is an interesting field because it's not its own field. You can technically use neurofeedback or provide neurofeedback services based on whatever license you have. If I'm a counselor, I can use neurofeedback to treat mental health, but I can't use it to treat epilepsy, right? But a neuro-physician could use it to treat epilepsy. Understanding some folks use it for educational purpose, trying to treat dyslexia, trying to treat other things like that. First, identifying, hey, why am I going? If I'm going an educator doing my neurofeedback, I may not want a chiropractor doing my neurofeedback.
Maybe I do. I may not want a physician. Maybe they're good at prescribing medication, but are they good at, are they focused on mental health or are they focused on COVID or something like that? I think it's finding the type of provider that you would first want to go to, even if they did want to use neurofeedback.
Then if they do, that's great. There's a board certification that you can get neurofeedback and it's bca.org. It's not an awesome website. It's an old website, but there is a word certified neurofeedback search that you can do, and you can find providers in your area that have at least met the board certification level of training and education there. That's a great place to start.
I also, it'll be a pretty strong proponent that the clinician or therapist should be involved in the process. They shouldn't have three or four rooms running at the same time where they're checking in on you and we'll go into the next room, the next room. It's really about, hey, what are you noticing? What's coming up? How do you feel this in your body? What brain settings? Really like this, I think a highly engaged approach to neurofeedback is much, much more successful. So.
I think also interviewing folks and asking how they do that. There are also lots of different styles and approaches of neurofeedback that mostly been describing sort of the most basic, which I think maybe is the most effective as well. It's called amplitude training. We're trying to train up or down the amount of brainwits you have, but there are quite a few other approaches as well. I think doing a little bit of research and finding folks that maybe are multimodal and can say, hey, for you and your brain, we think this is the best approach and here's why. That's a post-due. This is the only exposure I've ever had, so it must work.
William Curb: That's pretty good. I'm going to switch gears here now because there's just based on what I had here. I just wanted to also, because I was reading about your training in EMDR and then also internal family systems, which are both things I was kind of been like, I want to read more about those. Could you tell me a little bit about those?
Sean Brock: Totally, EMDR, sometimes we'll be like, what's the difference between EMDR and neural feedback? They kind of have nothing to do with each other except they both claim to be related to the brain. EMDR is a desensitization technique. Originally, it was sort of created for single incident trauma and the desensitization of single incident trauma.
Then over time, it's begun to be applied to more and more things and quite successful at that. But the way to find trauma is if I think back, all of us have yucky stuff in the past, if I think back to the past and I'm like, that was really sad or that was really hard, remember that was scary, but I don't really feel anything now. That's a bad memory. That's not trauma.
If I think back to a really challenging or scary or sad situation and I'm like, whoa, like instantly in that moment, I feel it again in my body. I feel scared again or I'm sad again or whatever. That's trauma. So trauma is sort of the past not living in the past. Past is still present and sort of like the light switch still turned on. So that event and we haven't allowed it to move to the past.
So EMDR is, I move it, reprocessing and desensitization. It's a counseling technique that allows you to partially re-experience these past negative experiences and follow how your nervous system stored that information. And then over time, I think because you're partly here in today and you're partly back then, you're a different person now than you were then. So as you're processing this information, your brain is able to do something new and different with it.
Then it has before, it can sort of solve the problem to some degree and allow it to then regulate the past. There's an element of bilateral stimulation. And so as EMDR, classically, you would use eye movement. So you would follow someone's fingers back and forth while you were partially re-experiencing these past events.
They also, you can do headstones that beep or have sounds in different ears or buzzers that you can hold in your hands that will vibrate left, right, left, right. And yeah, it's a really great technique to desensitize our triggers. It's not always the most fun process. It can be upsetting. It's like, hey, let's like dig up the most awful parts of your life and hang out with it until it doesn't hurt anymore.
Not as sucks. There's a lot of work as well to sort of make sure that you are resourced enough to tolerate the process and then how to put it away at the end of the session. So you're not sort of opening this old wound and leaving it open all week long between sessions. So how do we actually go? Internal family systems, you also asked about EMDR and internal family systems sort of go well together. To some degree, I can circle back to that. But internal family systems is based on the idea that we are not one singular, coherent person inside.
William Curb: I was literally listening to something yesterday that was mentioning it and they kind of like went by, but their description was it's like group therapy for one.
Sean Brock: Yeah, that's exactly right. And actually, that's how it was created. The founder Nic Schwartz was a family systems therapist. And so his way of approaching therapy in a family was based on all of the interactions between all the members of the family and over time, he realized, well, that's what is actually happening inside of all of us. And sometimes it sounds really strange. It's like, I have multiple personalities.
Like, are you saying that like, I'm like 20 people or what? Then you say, hey, have you ever like welcomed up the next day and be like, whoa, who was that guy last night? Or me, I got really defensive. Or when I feel really scared, I behave like this when I'm triggered, right? I behave in this way.
And then when I'm not triggered, I behave in a totally different way. So we would say those are parts of us. Those are ways that we show up or present in different situations. And internal family systems is really a process of getting to know the parts that we have and how they function when one is coming forward or another is going to come forward and why and all of that. And ultimately, the goal is to help those parts begin to believe that self. So there's this concept of self, which is maybe our like highest and best self, we would say that everyone has self and it is has similar attributes kind of across the board for everybody.
Helping these parts to believe that self is the best leader for the system. And so there's analogies like a conductor and an orchestra. The conductor is self. And if all of the parts, all of the instruments in the orchestra decide they're going to play however they think is best, the music is terrible. If the percussionist decides, hey, this is a perfect time to crash a symbol while there's a violin solo happening like it's chaos. The conductor maybe isn't the best oboe player, you know, maybe they're not the best at any of these things, but they're the best leader.
And so it's building a relationship amongst the system where self can lead, but it is calling on our certain parts to participate for best. And then there's a whole process of our parts actually performing functions that are helpful for us. And if they're not, why and then how to help them sort of let go of the need to do that.
William Curb: I mean, that sounds like so much of the stuff I've seen with like past behaviors I've developed that, you know, no longer serve me because, you know, they were from trauma or whatever, you know, it's like it was protecting me at the time, but now it's not.
Sean Brock: That's exactly right. And most of the time when we're in a part, unless it's like a manager part, you know, like we have parts that are like, hey, I'm really good at organizing, like great, you know, those parts feel more adult. But most of the time when we're, when we're feeling defensive or we're feeling scared or we're feeling, you know, all these things, it's like, how old do you feel right now? Do I feel like a 47 year old man?
It's like no way. I feel like I'm 7, you know, and I just need a hug, you know, or whatever it is. And that's one of the, as we get to know our parts, that's one of the questions. It's like, hey, how old and how old do you think I am? They're like, I don't know, 10, they're like, news flash, like, I'm old, you know, we actually don't need to behave like that anymore because we're adults.
You're like, oh, wow. You know, it's so it's a really beautiful process in its very, it's all based in kind, like not to be just cheesy kindness, but it is based basically in self love. How is, like self, can I care for these parts that are heard or needy or whatever, instead of saying, you're annoying go away? It's, hey, what do you need for me in order to feel safe enough to not behave like that? And that's where it overlaps with EMDR is that when we're processing old traumas, we're often dealing with arts. We're dealing with younger parts of ourselves that don't know how to handle things that happen to them because they're kids.
Right. And as adults, we have a very different perspectives on that. But when we get triggered, we feel like we're back there. We feel like we're yelping. Right. And so, I think having some knowledge of both of those types of therapies can be really helpful because we can sometimes live through EMDR faster when we realize that, oh yeah, this is like a little bit in here. They need love instead of shaming, you know, or whatever.
William Curb: Yeah. It's not a bad part of yourself. It was a part that's trying to help you and it's not, it's not helping anymore, but it was trying to help.
Sean Brock: And you're like, I'm like, I don't know. I'll be working with people and, you know, it's like, hey, how old is that part that's trying to help you date this person? You know, it's like, would you ever get, you know, would you ever get your 12 year old, you know, boy or son like involved in you like managing an adult relationship and trying to date or be married or whatever? It's like, absolutely not. You know, that's terrible. 12 year olds don't know anything.
That's like, yeah. But when that part comes up in you and you act like a 12 year old, those behaviors don't need to exist as an adult anymore. It's not, it doesn't help it. So, it's probably my favorite modality of counseling is internal family.
William Curb: I really want to look more into it because it sounds really helpful in the long run just to be like, yeah, there are parts of me that don't serve anymore and it's okay. Like they're not, they're not bad. They're just don't serve anymore.
Sean Brock: Yeah. And then if they believed that they didn't have to do that behavior anymore and they could lay that down, then what could they do? What are they going to? How can they help in a way that's actually really productive? Instead of feeling, well, I have to do the same because if I don't, XYZ will happen. That's bad.
William Curb: That's great talking to you. And is there anything you want to leave the audience with?
Sean Brock: One of the most important things for me is for people to realize that their experience of themselves and the world around them and their beliefs and all of those things inform the way their brain functions. So they're training their brain to be really good at being anxious or to be really good at being depressed or to be really good at being rigid or even ADHD.
It's like, and the opposite is also true. The way that your brain is wired through genetics, through experience, through whatever is informing and influencing how you feel and how you experience the world. And so if we change our behavior, our thoughts, our emotions, like all of that through all sorts of ways, whether it's through meditation, through counseling, through using a schedule and structure and all that, we are literally changing the structure of the brain. Like physically, we're pruning dendrites and we're creating new dendrites and new neural networks. So the structure of the brain changes.
But also from the other side, if we learn how to change the structure of the brain right through neural feedback or simulation or even behavioral conditioning, in other ways, when our brain changes, it will change how we experience ourselves, kind of the world, all of that. And so thinking about us and who we are as a person, knowing that we have the software of our experience runs on the hardware of the brain and they influence one another.
And so too, when you're thinking about, hey, how do I go from where I am to where I want to go, thinking about how to impact both sides of that equation is much more efficient than just doing one of you. That's kind of what our old practice is about and kind of our focus on the mental health side. But I think it goes for all sorts of periods.
William Curb: Awesome. Yeah, that's great. And if people wanted to find out more about you and what you do, where should they go?
Sean Brock: Yeah, so if you're in Colorado, NeuroColorado.com is our website. You can also even call us, you can send us emails if you're from around the country and you need help finding a provider or you want to shoot me someone's website and talk through. If you're a good candidate for neurofeedback or where you maybe should go, I'm definitely open to helping people out as well. Neurofeedback is not one of those things that is done very well remotely. So where my reach is limited and location shall lead for that type of treatment. But yeah, I'd love to help anybody that wants to or see this.
William Curb: Thank you for coming on the show. You just provide so much stuff here. So I'm really thankful to have had you on.
Sean Brock: Awesome. Thanks, William. It was a blast.
This Episode's Top Tips
Neurofeedback works by teaching you how to regulate your brainwaves, which can help you build focus when you need it.
Over time, it appears that neurofeedback can lead to long-term changes in brainwave activity, reducing ADHD symptoms and potentially decreasing the need for further interventions.
It’s important to find the right neurofeedback practitioner who actively engages with you during sessions for the best results. Also, remember that a multi-modal approach is key, combining neurofeedback with medication or therapy to optimize your treatment.