The Unwritten Rules of Neurodivergent Friendship with Caroline Maguire
Hey Team!
We’ve all had those moments where we walk away from a conversation and immediately spiral into a "self-regulation hangover," wondering if we said too much or if we were just being "tolerated" rather than included. Feeling like maybe this whole friendship thing maybe just isn’t for us.
This week, I’m talking with Caroline Maguire, a veteran social skills coach and the founder of the Social Excellence training program. She holds a Master's in Social Emotional Learning and is one of the few experts who approaches social skills as a "muscle" that can be built, rather than an innate talent you either have or you don't. Her first book, Why Will No One Play with Me?, became an instant staple for neurodivergent families helping children struggling with social skills to make friends. And with what she learned from that book she is now bringing to her upcoming book, Friendship Skills for Neurodivergent Adults: A Guide for the Anxious, Uniquely Wired, and Easily Distracted.
In this episode, we’re looking at the mechanics of friendship through a neurodivergent lens. We talk about the importance of proximity and "shared interest fuel" in bypassing the awkwardness of small talk. We also touch on the "rejection lens" and how our history of being bullied or marginalized can often color our current adult relationships. Caroline also walks me through some of her most practical frameworks, including the "Ice Cream Scoop" method for building trust and why having a "third place" is essential for creating low-pressure social friction.
If you'd life to follow along on the show notes page you can find that at HackingYourADHD.com/285
YouTube: https://tinyurl.com/y835cnrk
William Curb: I'm so excited to have you here because I've spent the last couple of weeks reading your book, The Friendship Skills for Neurodivergent Adults, and fantastic book. I really enjoyed it. Could you tell the audience a little bit about the book and then we'll get into see where we want to go from there?
Caroline Maguire: Sure. Friendship Skills for Neurodivergent Adults is a book about how to make friends, but neurodivergent style. So traditionally, a lot of books have talked about how to people and basically how to mask, how to twist yourself into a pretzel. And my take is really, we want to be authentic, we want to find belonging, and we want solutions and strategies that work with our brain that take our neurology in mind.
And there's not going to be 100%. I blur, I interrupt still. It's not as bad as it was, but it still happens. And there's things that we do differently in friendship. This is the first book for us by a neurodivergent person. Most of the books that are out there about friendship are for typical people. And when I would read them, I would think, this is so great, but like, I can't do this.
I can't do it this way. So it's coming in April. And I'm really excited because I want people to be able to have choice and they can take from it and then leave the rest. I say this like 8 million times in the book. If you don't like something, just don't do it. This isn't a prescriptive book. This isn't like a follow steps one, two, three.
William Curb: Yeah, absolutely. When I was going through it, I was just like, this is really nicely, I mean, I like the pacing for the book. I didn't feel like I was ever completely out of my depth with the ideas or what's going on. And it did feel really nice to be like, oh yeah, these are, take what I need and then kind of just go with what works best for me. Because, I mean, yeah, as we know, when you meet someone who's neurodivergent, you met one person that's neurodivergent. Everyone's different.
Caroline Maguire: Yeah, and I think like, I don't know about you growing up, but for me, there was this real thing about like, be really happy with anyone who wants to be friends with you, be like really grateful.
And there was no choice, right? So it's written for ADHD, out of the autistic folks. And sometimes our social battery isn't what typical people are, right?
So if you're saying to me, you have to go to every single event, you have to like do every single thing, then you're writing for like one neuro type and you're basically always writing for extroverts. And I really wanted people to feel like, because so many people are so cynical, I mean, I get DMs that are like, I like you Caroline and I watch your channel. But like, I'm super cynical about everything you have to say.
And I'm like, okay. But like, I think that leads to masking, right? Because I can't do that. And my social battery gets run down, you know, less than some more than others. And I'm sure that that's true. And everybody is different, as you said.
William Curb: And one thing I've always, I've been recently thinking about a lot more is the level of extroversion I have or introversion, because I kind of think of myself as an introvert. But often I'm like, is that really just because in a lot of settings, I'm masking a lot. And that makes me feel like I just don't want to be there.
Caroline Maguire: I've thought about this a lot lately, because at first, when I read about masking a few years ago, I was like, well, I don't mask, I get to be my authentic self, because I get to work in this ADHD world, right? Like I work with all these people.
Jessica McCabe was like, yes, you do. And we talked about it. And I thought about it. And my daughter is 16, and she has a lot to say. And she was like, look, mom, your generation masks a lot. And I thought about it. And I realized that some of the masking isn't my personality or my quirks. It was really this idea that I was trying to do it all. And I was really pivoted after that, because I was like, wow, even for me, being in this friendship world, working with people every day to help them make friends, it's really like eye-opening to go, what do I do that has become part of my water? And I don't even think about it. And I think that's a journey, right? It's a journey for us.
William Curb: About seven years ago, I moved away from where everyone I knew was. And so I was like, oh, I have to make new friends up here. And it's hard, because you just don't want to... You have to not do stuff. I mean, it also was hard, because moved two years later, we were straight into the pandemic. And so then that changed everything.
The pandemic. Oh. But yeah, it is a lot of the... There's a lot of work that goes into it. And a lot of us want everything to be seamless and easy, because often that's how when we're kids and we're on the playground, we're like, that kid's wearing a Minecraft shirt, I'm wearing a Minecraft shirt, we should be friends. And that's a little bit harder.
Caroline Maguire: And then when we're not, right? We're like, why am I not friends with that Minecraft shirt person because we should be friends? And I remembered, I don't know about you, but I remember having those thoughts. I remember thinking, you're so terrible. You should like me.
We're so similar. But I think it is also this shame. I don't know about you, but what I hear from our community so much is shame about what we experienced on the playground, shame about it being hard to make friends as an adult. And I feel like the one good thing that's come out of the pandemic, okay, if we can have one thing, it's that I'm not happy we are in a state of loneliness throughout the world and that it's become something that like the Princess of Wales is talking about and Harvard is talking about and everyone's talking about. But the one thing about it is that some people then get to understand like this is really hard.
And wow, you've always said it's been hard. And typical people maybe understand a little better. And then the other thing is I'm hoping that it destigmatizes it that like when you open a newspaper and you read that like a lot of people are having trouble with loneliness, you realize like it's not just us.
And I know the cynics are going to say, well, Caroline, we've been doing this like way longer than they have and like whatever. I know that. But I just want to remove the shame because I think we didn't have a playbook. And I think it was a less tolerant world. Like I think there was less coming from parents and caregivers. Okay, we were just talking before about My Little Pony, right? And how your kid is watching My Little Pony and it's these messages about friendship. Like when we were growing up, we sent a message about Five More Live Little Pony. Like it wasn't like, oh, be kind, you know?
William Curb: Yeah, it was very funny because my daughter was like, oh, can we watch some of the original? I'm like, we can, but you won't want to. And she found an episode, she played it and she's like 30 seconds and she's like, wow, this is awful.
Caroline Maguire: Welcome to the 80s, kid.
William Curb: And yeah, that's, it is like, oh, now we do have a lot of people. Yeah, we do have a lot of understanding that friendship is important. Because I was like, should we talk about why friendship is important? I'm like, no, I don't know if that's something people really need. Like people generally want to have friends.
Caroline Maguire: I think the only thing to sort of say is to the cynics, the way I set up the book, because I had many, many people say to me, even people I interviewed for this book, who aren't named necessarily, because some people were like, I don't want you to name me and I'm totally cool with that. But even some of the named people were like, I'm so cynical that this could work. And the way I set up the book was like, I say in the first chapter, like if you want to just read this and then put it down, and then come back to it, if you want to do one small piece and have that journey and then come and add more.
Like I think that's the only thing because I do think there's a piece where I want to say to the cynics, you deserve this. And by opting out of it completely. And believe me, I've had times in my journey after I was bullied after whatever when I was a kid where I was just like, I'm not sure I'm gonna do this or I was like, I'm gonna have my two friends and that's it. And that's fine as long as it's not that you are opting out because I think then you're allowing people to deprive you of something that you deserve and that we can find even if it's online, even if it's with other neurodivergent folks. There are places where you will be beloved and you deserve to feel that. Yeah.
William Curb: And when you don't have it for a long time, it kind of does feel that like, oh well, this is just how life is. I'm an adult now and we don't have close friends anymore.
Caroline Maguire: Or I can only have neurodivergent friends.
William Curb: Yeah. There's certainly some people that will not understand being neurodivergent, but as you reiterated in the book a number of times, not everyone's gonna be your friend and that's okay. You don't want that. And not everyone's going to be the same level of friend. Right.
Caroline Maguire: And Ari Tuchman said something on my podcast I thought was sort of brilliant because it's so simple, but it just coming from someone who is also typical. He said, you know what, Caroline?
He said, if people are like, you have to be on time and they're super scrupulous about that, they're not your people. And I think you're gonna have different friends for different purposes. You're gonna have different friends for different phases of your life. Not everybody is going to be a good, good friend.
You get like two or three of those over your lifetime. I was always jealous because I'm an only child of people with sisters because I was like, oh, they may have like a built-in friend. And some of my friends are like, nope, that's not what happened. But I mean, I do think that too. Like, I wish that I could make people feel less shame so that if someone is chastising you about lateness, that we could have the confidence to say, well, you're just not my people. And I know that that's like so much easier said than done.
But like, I wish that because I do think that that's the truth. Like, there are people who don't care. And then there are people who cajole you and put you down and make little quippy comments. Those quippy comment people, they're not, I hope you're not tolerating them because they're not your people.
William Curb: There is a thing where it can be hard to be like, oh, I can kind of choose who I want to be around. I don't have to settle for these people that I normally see all the time, but aren't my people.
Caroline Maguire: And you having all of this stuff behind you, it just reminds me of one of the other central things that I talk about, which is to find your people, your interest is our fuel and interest is the way forward. And I think that is really different from other friendship books because yeah, friendship books tell you, dating apps tell you, like, join stuff.
But I'm saying like, go deep, like go to fandoms, go to like, run a comic book thing with other people who love comic books and have that be your community, like, go to your interests and instead of feeling ashamed of them the way we were grown up to feel, embrace it and let that be the gateway to you finding your people because I love true crime and I have all these communities I'm in where I talk about these like things that no one else cares about. Like no one cares, but these people care.
William Curb: Bonding over shared interest is very special and especially for neurodivergent individuals where we're just like, I want to info dump about this thing and then the person being like, I'm so glad you did.
Caroline Maguire: Yeah, like I've been kind of giddy today because of some stuff I love the royals too. And it's again, it's like so bizarre. I don't know how I ended up this person. And I've been like giddy today over things that have been happening. And it's it's like weird because if I didn't have those people that share that interest, I would just be by myself being giddy over these bizarre things. But if you have people that you become friends with through these interests, then it allows you to bond quicker. Like we want things to go quickly, right?
We don't love the, you know, I have the different levels of friendship, different stages of friendship in the book. And I think it's important for us to know and I think it's important for us to know that even with neurodivergent people, things can can slow down so that you build trust and you don't give your trust away and you're treated well. But it's a lot easier to make friends when you have that shared interest to talk about.
William Curb: Oftentimes, I know for myself, if I don't have a specific reason to talk to someone, I probably just won't. But so honest, I love it. It's like it happens when I like go to the bus stop in the morning and I'm to like wait with my kids and like there's the other parents there and I'm like, I don't have anything to say. So I'm just standing here. It's taken a while to get past that like awkwardness of like, oh, yeah, I just don't have to talk if we don't have anything to talk about. And but it's also different than with like the friends where I'm like, oh, I know you're going to love this. And so like, you know, immediately finding a friend and I have been chatting a lot recently about a new book that we are looking forward to coming out. And we're just like, ooh, the next book's going to be out in March and it's been waiting for, you know, like a year and exciting that's going to happen.
Caroline Maguire: Well, and here's the thing. I think in the past, there was this attitude that you had to sort of exit your comfort zone, mask up and talk to those people at the bus stop, right? Now, if my kid needs friends and they like a kid at the bus stop, I will do that chit chat because I want my kid to have that. And unfortunately, parents grease the wheels a lot in socialization nowadays more than for us where I didn't even know if my parents knew where I was, let alone like what I was, who I was friends or not friends with.
But I think nowadays there's, I hope there's more understanding of like some people don't enjoy that kind of chit chat. It's hard for you. It drains your energy. And, you know, in some cases, it's not worth expending the energy, right? Because it doesn't make you feel more connected. I actually think it makes you feel more lonely in some cases, because you're like, oh, now I just had this really awkward chat and I just felt, instead of embraced, I felt tolerated.
William Curb: Yeah, definitely with, I mean, especially, this is why I'm like, yeah, these are people that I see regularly, but like I can clearly tell that we're both not each other's people and that's fine. But it is the like, there is like a sense of like, oh yeah, these are not people I would talk to any other time. And that is like, there's a separation there.
Caroline Maguire: Yeah, I mean, absolutely. And I think, you know, I think it's okay to say that chit chat is not our thing. I talk a lot in the book about if you want to do it, here's how to do it, right? Because a lot of people write me and ask me about that. And it's something that's like a really popular topic. And I do talk about if you like, if you joined an activity for your special interest and you don't make conversation, then you can't get to know people.
So here's how to do it, right? And that I feel like feels better to us because it's like purposeful. Like I want to get to know people. I want to talk about these things I'm interested in. I want to feel them out and see if they're interested in them too. I feel like that feels better to us than just this purposeless thing.
William Curb: Yeah. So I think about this, in December, I got selected for jury duty. And so I was in this trial for two weeks. And I'm in the jury room with all the other jurors. And we had quite a few breaks where we were just sitting there and just chatting about nothing because the jury duty was very boring.
Caroline Maguire: Oh my God, I've been on a jury. It was not only boring, it was like, there was a lot of hurry up and wait and then go back to a room and then come back out. I know it's our civic duty, but I hated it.
William Curb: It may be really a question about maybe the system needs some updates. But while I was there, I was really thinking about I am spending a lot of time with these people and sometimes getting to know a little bit about them, but oftentimes very superficially, a lot of complaints about work and that kind of thing, that's what I'm learning about. And although sometimes more deeper, I learned a lot about one of the jurors' opinions on the Second Amendment and her being quite upset that she could not bring her gun to the courtrooms.
But it's like this kind of thing where I'm like, none of these people were really my friends, but it was like, I had to spend time with them. And so we had to find ways to make it more enjoyable.
Caroline Maguire: And I think that that's true. And I think that goes to the workplace, right? If you are in the workplace, then and you are, you know, even let's say you're like, I don't really want friends in this place, I would say pick up the book because it can teach you how to sort of make it less boring, make it more enriching. And also, how to know stuff that you need to know by getting to know people so that you know what's coming down the pike, right? You have allies for things you have people to reach out to for things.
And it's less lonely, there's more camaraderie. And I think when you're thrown in like a jury duty type situation, yeah, like I'm going to make chit chat because I also may want to influence people, right? Like I may want them to like listen to me at some point. It is awkward because it is usually very superficial.
William Curb: Yeah. And it's definitely something where as like a neurodivergent adult, it's really hard to be like, when do I want to dive deeper in with these people? And when am I over sharing?
Caroline Maguire: And I think that's where you like have to look for the signals people give you. Like if they, you know, share something about their life, then you can share in line with what they say. I have this thing called the ice cream scoop method. Ice cream scoop method, I can say things. And it's like if you think about sharing as just like you're taking a scoop and then they take a scoop and then I take a scoop, then you're adding each time. And so you start out at the, you know, they're not your friends, right?
They're queens, they're people you say hello to. So you're starting out at that level of like, I'm going to say instead of like everything about childhood trauma, I'm just going to say like my parents are difficult, right? But then if they also say, yeah, the holidays are coming and my parents are difficult, then they've kind of sent you a signal, right?
And so what I talk about a lot in the book is like how to look for those signals and then how to look for signs that someone is looking to share more with you and looking to invite you to share. And I know that it takes self-regulation and some people might say, oh, you know, this is a lot of work. But my thing is when we share too much, forget about the shame cycle that results, we're giving away our trust. And in some cases, like the workplace, it might not be a great idea. And I think the reason why we have the self-regulation hangover from oversharing is that we kind of know that, you know, like we don't maybe have the intellectual conversation with ourselves, but we know that.
William Curb: Where we go, man, if someone had told me that, I might be a little uncomfortable too.
Caroline Maguire: Yeah, or like you just can't believe you said it. Like we've all had that moment probably where we're like, I can't believe I said that. And as a person who used to overshare a lot, I don't think it ever completely goes away.
Like I have days where I'm tired and I say too much. But I've been able to learn about people's, you know, levels of intimacy and when to share what. And I've made rules for myself. And I've worked on the self-regulation part. So it's not, you know, it's not a constant thing that brings me as much shame. And so I think it's important for people to know that there's a method to figuring out what to share and what not to share that they can learn. So that they can build that trust and build those friendships.
William Curb: Yeah, there's a lot to try and navigate there. But I do think it's something that is important for mind people that, yeah, you are capable of navigating it. Absolutely.
Caroline Maguire: I think the worst feeling is when you feel like I don't have any answers and I don't know what to do and I'm so frustrated. And so that's why I've always done what I do. Like I've always done what I do out of frustration that basically people write articles and they say you ADHD people, you should read the room. But then they don't tell us how to read the room. Like that's how all this started.
I was just like impatient with the fact that we were cajoled and chastised all the time without any roadmap of like, well, great. So how do I do that? Yeah.
William Curb: And you're like, well, I'm being just like that person and everybody likes that person. I was like, well, yeah, but you're not that person. Hard to be like, oh, I need to be my own person.
But also it feels like one of those things where it's just like, oh, yeah, I can't find those right answers. And so, yeah, having a book is a great starting place.
Caroline Maguire: Well, and I think also it's timely. I think that a lot has happened since the pandemic. And I think that we've really as a community kind of come together. And there's a lot on the internet where people are saying like, I don't want to be tolerated and I don't want friendship to feel the way it's felt.
I want to have genuine connection. And I think that is a piece in the past 21 years that I've been a coach. It feels different to me. Like it feels like we're more empowered and more seeking for people to understand us and not just like try to fit into a box.
William Curb: And this reminds me of, I was listening to the book, We're Walking Through Costco, and then the particular line just like hit me and I'm like standing in the middle of a little aisle being like, huh. which was just about the two-way street of a friendship. I'm typically a person that tries to be very giving in a friendship and be the person that's like, yeah, how I feel doesn't matter. We'll just do whatever you want to do and being like, oh, it's kind of important for both sides of that to be going through.
Caroline Maguire: Yeah, it's so funny because I've been doing the audio book in the studio the past week and I was really glad because you forget things, but I have a whole way to check for reciprocity because it's a big thing where we were kind of taught exactly what you're saying, to just give and then we realize the friendship is lopsided or we realize we're giving more than they are or a question that comes up a ton is like, what if I'm the person who makes all the plans and then you feel like embarrassed or you feel like maybe they don't really care about me, maybe they'll only come because they make plans. And so I have literally lists of things to check so that you can troubleshoot, like, is my relationship lopsided?
Am I giving too much? And I think that goes back to the oversharing and the building of trust. Trust is track record and so every relationship is the track record. So there's always times in relationships where things are uneven. I mean, there's times when someone is busy, someone has a sick parent, but I think to be able to sort of look at that and see if it is a two-way street and if there is that reciprocity.
William Curb: Yeah, because I know so many people I've seen online discussing well, if I just stop texting this person, then I'll never hear from them again. And so are they really my friend? That's a weird question to answer.
Caroline Maguire: I mean, the hardest part about that answer is I know neurodivergent people who never text back. Right? So I so need to know more about that situation when people say stuff like that to me because I'm like, well, there's a ton of people listening to this who are like, I don't text back.
Right? But I still like you. So I think that's on a simple question in a way. My instinct is if they're not neurodivergent and they don't text you and they don't show signs of interest, then they're probably not a real friend. But I also think that this is why this is such a complicated area because I need to know so much more. And that's where I have a bunch of things to troubleshoot and sort of ask yourself questions because I also think that we can be very sensitive and that's okay. But sometimes we frame things in our minds in a way that is extremely negative. And when people come to me and they say, the friendship is lopsided, they don't care, all this stuff. And then I dig a little bit sometimes it's like, well, that person is having an incredibly hard time right now. And we're adults, hard times can go on for a while.
It's not like when you're a kid, you had a hard day. And so I also want us to check the story we're telling ourselves because I think sometimes that story is, here's one, all my relationships end. And then when I probe a little bit, it's like, well, the relationships weren't real friendships, they were more acquaintance or participationships.
And it's so hard that they ended. But it wasn't the same as someone breaking up with you or ghosting you. And then the story has become something else. And we have to challenge that rejection lens that comes out.
William Curb: Yeah, because combining those kinds of things with the rejection sensitive dysphoria and that kind of stuff, it's very easy to have yourself telling yourself a very negative story about how this is going.
Like, oh, my friends don't actually like me, which is such a very strange story that we tell ourselves where we're like, they're just stringing me along for no reason. If I think about it for a while, that doesn't make as much sense as it made in my head five minutes ago. But it is something that I know a lot of people kind of wrestle with.
Caroline Maguire: Yeah, mindset is so important. And I have a chapter on mindset. And I talk about it a lot in the book, because I think like a lot of my clients also do something called I call anxious overcorrection, where they get a story in their head, they decide someone, the last interaction has been shown scientifically colors our view of the relationship in ADHD. And the problem with that is people have bad days, people have stuff going on for themselves.
And so a lot of times, then people send a million texts or ask the state of the relationship. I think there's a difference between that and trying to be treated well, right? Trying to be treated well is I want to set boundaries.
I'm not just going to always people, please all that kind of stuff. But a lot of times I find that the mindset and the fear leads to, stories and then those stories lead to really impulsive actions that maybe weren't the best way to handle it. And then you actually do lose the relationship.
William Curb: Yeah, because there's one thing I've really learned over the years is that I can't read other people's minds and what they want and don't. As much as I like anytime I've had a conversation in my head before I have the actual conversation has never gone the way I thought it was going to go. Yeah.
Caroline Maguire: And I think that's one of the things around rumination, right? It's like one of the things I learned that I share in the book is don't ask why questions, because you cannot know why. Because I can't parachute into your brain and know why it helps to get you stuck in that ruminative loop.
We like to think about why, but we really can't know why and we can't really understand everyone else's motives. What we can do is check some things, see how we've been treated, see what signs there are that this is a real friendship. If we need to, we can set boundaries, right? But we tend to think we can reason our way through it, because that's what rumination does. It makes you think I can figure this out, but then you're just stuck in the loop.
William Curb: I am amazed with just how often my brain is like, this thought leads to this thought, which leads to this thought. And this is one of the reasons I like journaling and stuff, because I can physically see the loop happening and then be like, okay, well, I need to do something else like this. But yeah, talking to people and just checking your assumptions.
Caroline Maguire: Yeah, it's so funny because I'm a champion ruminator and I guess I'm a kind of a reformed ruminator. I'm so much better than I used to be. And checking those assumptions is so important, but it's also important to know your brain kind of wants you to be stuck, right? There's this thing called the Velcro principle where the brain hangs on to those negative stories. And I think for many of us, we were told a lot of negative things. We have some degree of trauma, and so it's really easy to get caught in those loops.
I'm not like saying it's not. But I think that knowing that the why questions never, they never lead you out. They always just keep you stuck. And to do a pattern interrupt, do something to interrupt that ruminative cycle, because your brain literally gets stuck.
William Curb: Yeah, and it feels, yeah, it does definitely feel like, oh, if I just think about this more, I'll figure this out. And it's a trick. So moving on to another idea that I love from the book was this concept of plopping. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I think people love to hear about this.
Caroline Maguire: So a few years ago, Ned Hollowell introduced me to Jessica McCabe, and he was like, you'll like each other. And we made a video together, and we did like each other.
And then when she got her book deal, I had offered what I've been offering to a lot of people, which is, I was very alone when I wrote Why Will No One Play With Me. I didn't know a lot of people. I knew some people in the ADD community, but I didn't have as many friends. I didn't have friends who'd written books other than Ned Hollowell. And I wasn't going to ask him every single question I had.
So I often say to people, if you have a moment when you're just super overwhelmed or you want to know why has my publisher not dealt with this, call me and we'll talk it through. And so I started talking to Jessica every Friday. And right away, she would talk about her friendship goals. And she had this vision that I think is just so, so what so many of us feel of she wants to plop with someone.
She wants to walk down their driveway, take the mail out of their mailbox, and walk in their back door, and just plop on their couch and debrief about the day. And I wrote this story in the book because it takes time. You have to find people, you have to vet people, you might meet someone and you might think, oh, this person's going to be my plop. And then they turn out to be like a terrible toxic narcissist.
You never know, right? And Jessica and I have become really good friends and we virtually plop. And I wanted to include that because I think she's still on a journey as her friend. I want her to find plop. I also think that sometimes, at least for me, I would rather plop with someone virtually than not plop at all.
Or or have people that are down the street but don't treat me well and maybe aren't as understanding. And so it's really just the story of the fact that this is all a journey. But I love the image of plop because I totally can picture it. I've had it at times in my life, right?
I'm an only child, so I don't think I'm like quite the candidate for plop because I don't tend to want people just opening my door and coming in like the only child in me is like, oh, I need my space. But I love the image and I felt like it was such a powerful story of just the journey. And so when I was writing a book, I asked her like, could I include plop? And she completely approved it and looked at it and loved it. So it really like there's a lot of stories in there about my journey but also than other people's journeys. Yeah.
William Curb: And which is so important because everyone's journey is going to be different. It's dad group I do board games with here is like, oh, yeah, that formed because our kids were friends. And that's a little unusual for like, oh, we're like, oh, yeah, this is great. We happen to live near each other and our kids like each other. Perfect.
Caroline Maguire: Yeah. And it's like things have phases, right? And so, you know, you might have that for a while. And then like you said, you moved and when you moved, you had to make friends and like things do go in phases. And I think that as people who were often rejected as kids, we don't like that because it feels scary. But I feel like that's one reason I wrote the book because I was like, then you have a path forward. Like you could use this book and meet your people and then you don't need it for a few years and then you come back to it, right? Like I want it to be there for people so that they can do whatever pieces they want to.
William Curb: So there's one more topic I wanted to make sure we hit, which was that of the third place. Can you give a brief introduction what the idea of third place is? Yeah.
Caroline Maguire: So the idea of third place is a place that you go where you have community. So it could be a bowling alley, a bar, a coffee shop, your church community. But we used to have in society a lot of third places. And I think our parents had a lot of them and our grandparents had a lot of them and a lot of them have sort of dried up.
Or because we're so busy and we move around more, like my grandfather was an elk, right? Came back from World War II. He has little people and they were so happy together.
They had each other. And so I feel like those third places, people have written about it. They have disappeared in many cases or they exist, but we don't make them a foundational pinnacle of our lives. But they can be a place where you really meet people and get to know them and share interests and also have the community that makes you feel like you're a part of something as opposed to just like, I could be living in any place. Like I could literally live any place on the planet as long as I have Wi-Fi, right? Like I think that's a big distinction for me. Yeah.
William Curb: I know I used to have a, I did a lot of a pick up ultimate frisbee and that was definitely kind of the third place for me. It was, I get to know a lot of people through that. And some of them are friends and some of them are just people I know there.
But I think that the big thing there is it's like creating that social friction where I'm like, oh yeah, this is where I can see people that because don't always want people at my house, don't always want to be at work and it needs to have, if I'm going to see people, there needs to be a place that I'm seeing them. Yeah.
Caroline Maguire: And you know, I have a friend who since we graduated from college has been a member of a softball league and he talks about it like he's going to the Red Sox.
And I'm like, we're 50 now. So we're definitely not like being called up by the majors, but it is his third place, right? Like it's a summer community where they come together and they play these softball games and they like it. And for some of us, maybe you're like, I hate softball or I don't want to do Ultimate for SB or I don't want to do whatever. But there are other third places. And I think, you know, what we were talking about is like, it's just something that, you know, there's a real call now sometimes to like bring back that third place and make it something. And part of this in the book is that proximity, I have three Ps to make friends. And one of them is participation. And one of them is proximity. And proximity is so important because when you are near people and you show up every week at the same time, people get used to seeing you there, they include you, they get to know you. And also, there's just real research that like, if you show up to even an online place and have proximity with people that they expect you and that that is part of how you grow friendship. And I think for us, it's sometimes hard for us to show up. It's hard for us to keep a schedule. So that's why I recommend that your third place be something you really love, right?
It has to be something that has a magnetic draw. But, you know, volunteering can be the third place too, right? Like, it can be something that fits you. But, you know, I have friends. I'm a not great dog mother. I have a fenced in yard and I send the dog outside. But I have friends who go to the dog park every single day. And if they suddenly didn't show up at the dog park, like, people would be like looking for them because they have this camaraderie that's developed. For some people, it's difficult because they're going to say, like, I have trouble making a conversation.
I've tried those things. So there are skills involved. But I think the third place can become that community where we feel less lonely. I don't know. You had thoughts about the third place. Like, even back at the conference, you had thoughts about the third place.
William Curb: I think the proximity thing is so important because it is, you need that place that you are going to see people. And then also with the idea of like, this is where the shared interest happens often, which is why something like a coffee shop wouldn't work for me. Also, because I kind of don't want to be a regular anywhere like a coffee shop because that feels a little bit too much like being seen of like, oh, you didn't have your regular order. I'm like, oh, no, they know me that way.
Caroline Maguire: Whereas I love that they know my regular order. It's so funny. But I wouldn't even say that that's the third place fully because they know me in a very, very superficial way, right? Like, I'm iced tea. They don't know me really. I think it can be something.
And I think there are places with like, someone was just telling me that they go to a coffee shop where there's like quilting classes and there's like, you know, role play games and like, it's not just a place you get coffee. So I think it can be bad. But I also love that you do not want them to know. You're like switching names at the counter.
William Curb: I'm like, this makes me uncomfortable. I'm like, that's weird. I don't know why that makes me uncomfortable.
Caroline Maguire: I think many people listening would probably agree with you.
William Curb: Well, the thing that like makes me like, just mad in my head is like, oh, I don't want to be, it's kind of like the more autistic side of like, not wanting to be observed. And then I'm like, also, come look at my podcast where...
Caroline Maguire: You know, but I think like it's whatever makes you happy and comfortable. And I, in a third place to me also, now that we like have a broader definition of things can be to me online. Like, I definitely feel like there are a lot of people who find a third place online.
And I think we really used to run down those online connections. I think they were given like less efficacy. But now there's studies coming out that show, A, they're a bridge.
So if you are super shy and it's super hard for you to do this in person, it's a way to get your confidence up, find your people, and then you can bridge to in person. But it also is being shown that for a lot of people, that is satisfying. And they don't want plop, right? They don't need plop. They want just people who fill their day and make them feel happy.
William Curb: Yeah, it's finding that connection with someone. And that can easily happen with people online where you're like, oh yeah, some of my best friends no longer live anywhere near me. But we stay connected through texting, phone calls, and chatting online. And I don't necessarily think that that friendship needed to have started in person for that to have that deep level. It's just that's just how those friendships happen to start.
Caroline Maguire: Yeah, I mean, I have a lot of friends that I made 21 years ago when I started coaching who we used to talk on the phone. We didn't even have Zoom. And they are deep friendships to this day.
Now we Zoom, but not always. We'll joke, like we're going to talk on the phone like old style. And I think it's really whatever fills your social cup, right? Rather than what other people think you should do.
William Curb: Yeah, and I think that's always one of the hardest things being Nerd Day Virgin is what we should do versus what we are told we should do by just nerd typicals.
Caroline Maguire: Yeah, I mean, that's really one of the big themes of the book is like, stop seeing friendship as something that you have to comply to these standards that other people had told you in the past you have to and start finding what you need and what fills your social cup and then do things in stages. Like for some people, this is a really scary journey. So do things in stages if you need to. And like I have in the book one thing to try today.
And that is definitely for anyone, but it's also for the crowd who are like, I will read your book, Caroline, and I'm not sure I'm going to agree to do anything. And it's like, well, just try this one thing.
William Curb: Yeah, because I mean, that is the trick is that you do have to try. It's most of the time, friends, you don't always have an extrovert that finds you and it's like, well, I'm going to be your guide.
Caroline Maguire: Well, and also like as a person who used to rush into friendship, what I will say that a lot of people can probably relate to is sometimes those people who found me or who also loved to rush into friendship, you literally got into the relationship and realized like, oh my God, they are super toxic and I like do not want to be in this relationship.
And I feel like in my 20s and 30s, I was constantly like unwinding myself from someone that I didn't really get to know well enough. And so I didn't know that like, they had certain views that I was like, oh, okay, that's horrible. Oh my God, you know, and so I feel like that's the thing like we have to, we have the right to check people out, get to know them, vet them a little bit. I mean, we do all this with dating apps, we could do it with friends too.
William Curb: And it's so important that we do it because we need to find our people. We need to find our people. All right, well, we're coming up on time here. I was wondering if you had any final thoughts you wanted to leave the audience with?
Caroline Maguire: My final thought is that it's time for us to have the friendships we deserve. But if you buy the book, you know, take what you want and leave the rest. And it might be that today, certain things are not something you want to do, but then you have it for tomorrow when you maybe meet someone, maybe you go to your third place and you're like, I really want to get to know this person. So I'm going to read Caroline's conversation chapter, even though before I previously was like, I don't even, I might cut it out of the book, you know? So I think like, give yourself that opportunity to know that like, you can do things in degrees and you can do what's right for you right now. Awesome.
William Curb: Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate this conversation. So much, I think a lot of people get a lot of it.
Caroline Maguire: Thank you. I'm so glad. And thank you for having me.
This Episode's Top Tips
ADHD impulsivity often leads to "oversharing," which creates a "self-regulation hangover" of shame. The shift here is to view sharing as taking one "scoop" at a time, waiting for the other person to match your level of intimacy before offering more, which protects your trust and your energy.
Our brains naturally hang on to negative social stories like Velcro while letting positive ones slide off like Teflon. Recognizing this biological bias allows you to challenge the "rejection lens" and realize that a friend's lack of a text might be about their own hard time rather than a reflection of your worth.
Making friends isn't a 1-2-3 prescriptive step; it's about "social friction" and proximity. By prioritizing showing up at the same place consistently, you allow people to get used to you, which lowers the barrier for entry into community and future friendships.
Remember, deep friendship doesn’t happen instantly and takes work. Don’t be discouraged if you’re first attempts don’t work out, keep at it and build up those friendships over time.