This week, I’m talking with Neha (name changed for anonymity) - she is a first-generation Indian immigrant who worked in big tech based out of the Bay Area, California. She now works to create awareness about undiagnosed ADHD in South Asians, especially women, and sells ADHD and autism-friendly products on her website pawtistictravel.com.
And just as a quick note, Hacking Your ADHD listeners can get a 15% discount code with Hacking15 on all purchases.
In our conversation today Neha talks about her history of chronic domestic and emotional abuse, and how finally acknowledging and getting help with PTSD revealed her ADHD symptoms and diagnoses. We explore the lasting impacts of childhood trauma, from physical and emotional abuse to neglect, and its connections to ADHD and other mental health issues. We go into the importance of self-validation, diagnosis, and self-compassion in the healing journey. Through our discussion, we try and provide insights into living with and managing ADHD, emphasizing small ways that we can work with our brains instead of against it.
As such, this episode is a bit more intense than some other episodes so if that’s not something you are up for right now, feel free to skip this one or come back to it later. That said, I think this is an incredibly powerful episode and want to thank Neha for the vulnerability of coming on the show and sharing her story.
ACE Test Resources
William Curb: Do you want to do a quick introduction and just tell us a little bit why you're here?
Neha: For sure. So I am Neha. I currently run my own business on pet products and travel products for people with neurodivergence. I'm here because I have ADHD and I also have complex trauma, which I was told that I have, which manifested as a lot of comorbidities like MDD, GAD, that is major depressive disorder, generalize anxiety disorder. And I sort of went on a whole Russian roulette of diagnoses like bipolar 2, borderline, all these before the doctor eventually found a link between complex trauma and ADHD. And I'm here to sort of spread some awareness about it because how this affected me and impacted my adult life.
I don't want anybody to go through that and be 31 and then realize that, oh, a lot of my symptoms are a result of things that happened to me. A very interesting thing about complex trauma that my ADHD psychiatrist mentioned was people who suffer or are in a situation where they are just unable to escape, like their body is just unable to escape. They've developed defense mechanisms where their brain escape or like leave the chat quote unquote, while their body is still there.
So while you are there and you physically cannot escape when you are getting tortured or abused, but your brain can self soothe, your brain can just, you know, I'm not here. And I didn't realize that this was a thinking pattern. This is the way my brain was getting wired when I was a kid. And it led to a lot of inattentiveness, a lot of diffractibility, which was not really noticed, but as I grew older and responsibilities became a lot. And especially when I reached a safe space, the brain's rewiring didn't change. So I developed ADHD because the moment never felt safe for me and my brain. And we just wanted to escape that moment.
William Curb: Yeah.
Neha: I'm here to talk a little bit more about things like corporal punishment, verbal abuse, physical abuse, which happened in a lot of cultures. And they are not only normalized, but also quite often encouraged and how they can manifest as adults, deep ADHD and how we can either catch those signs early on. And if you are an adult like me, you can go back and fix your childhood, but at least you can tap into it and realize that all your brain developed a certain way in response to certain events. And you can still take charge, go to a doctor, get diagnosed and go from there like a clean slate. So thank you so much, William, for having me.
William Curb: Yeah. Because we do see a lot of these co-morbidities that come with ADHD. And I've written a little bit about how trauma can be associated with ADHD. And especially with the CPTSD, the complex trauma there is it often we are like, when we think about trauma, we think about this big T trauma where there's a specific event. This is, you know, there was this one terrible event, but then complex trauma is just all these events that, you know, maybe they can all be very bad, but, you know, it's adding into something else.
Neha: Exactly. This is extremely important, like the point you mentioned, because I think still about a year ago, I had another incident with people who had abused me. I was in touch with them and I had a major altercation, which I was in like on bed rest for a week, because that's how shaken I was. But to your point, I was in complete denial that something is wrong, quote unquote with me, because I didn't have any flashbacks. I didn't have any, oh, you should go there. Because I was like, yeah, I mean, I don't have any flashbacks or any memories. And that's what caught my psychiatrist, you know, like a light bulb went off. She was like, the fact that you don't have memories is the scary part. And I was like, okay, I was like, no, you know what, like people who are veterans and people who are in car crashes, like trauma is for them. For me, it's just very like, no, I mean, I don't even remember anything. I'm pretty sure I have moved on.
And she was like, no, you have not moved on. It's so deep seated that you don't even remember. Like that's how you function, like not trusting people. And this is one very, very important thing to highlight, because complex PTSD manifests very differently than like your regular PTSD, because complex PTSD is chronic abuse, something which happens to you, especially at a younger age.
There are many people who are doing some excellent work on complex PTSD, but I think it really needs to be highlighted that while PTSD symptoms also come, there is obviously an overlap, but complex PTSD can manifest as why hate myself, why I'm so ugly, why I'm so fat, or nobody loves me. A lot of people ask me at work situations or in school that why do you think everybody is thinking negatively about you? And why do you have such a negative outlook on life? And I was like, I don't know, like this is how I am. And then somebody asked me, what was your happiest moment? And I was like, I'm not sure if I've had a happy moment.
I've only had relieved moments. That was like the warning sign that because people who are PTSD completely inspired by all their stories, they usually say that there was a before and an after. For me, and unfortunately, a lot of people who have complex PTSD, there is no before that is it. Complex PTSD also manifests like if events happen to you when you were 15 years or younger, that basically forms your like whole brain's rewiring, like your brain's rigid wiring, for example, and that's very difficult to overcome. So yes, I'm very glad that you bring that up because I think we need to spread a little bit more awareness about complex PTSD and have a lot more conversations about that, because the treatments are slightly different.
A lot of treatments that we follow for PTSD, they may not work because EMDR, like the first line of treatments that we give, they didn't work for me, because I just didn't even have an embryo which we were trying to tackle. I have like my whole life. It was like, what do I pick? Because it's pretty much each day that I was suffering. So I don't even have like one incident. And how it has manifested in me is of course, like there's immense shame about being myself, immense shame about the fact that oh, you are worthless, immense hyper vigilance, which has given me generalized anxiety disorder and a lot of chronic pain.
So it has manifested in that. And I completely thought that, oh, I maybe have anxiety because of, you know, my job or I have chronic pain because I have flat feet or I have hyper vigilance because I'm super motivated to work. And it's only when I develop like serious heart palpitations, because life responsibilities increase, you are not a kid anymore, you have wills to pay and you have a dog to take care of and you have life to do and you have your ADHD to manage. And when it got a lot, that's when I was now able to take charge and be like, okay, I have been chasing the wrong thing and sort of saying that, oh, I'm okay, I don't have this because that was not what I had quite frankly, I had complex PTSD, which is slightly different and the modalities are slightly different, treatments are slightly different. I'm glad that we are able to get to this place where we have a distinction and we can treat both these comorbidities like separately.
William Curb: Both of these things can also just on their own mimic symptoms of ADHD, which means that having ADHD and them is you just have this like pile on effect where it magnifies some of these things. And so when you do have these like triggers and things, it can make it so much worse because you're just like, oh, well, I was with my ADHD, but now this is what's going on.
Neha: For sure. So very good point because what happens with me or what happened with me and now my prefrontal cortex tells me that don't do this is if anything went wrong that oh my dog has diarrhea, for example, immediate reaction was you're useless, you're worthless. And that was such a defeating mentality because if you say, oh, my dog has diarrhea, let me add some pumpkin paste to his diet or let me give him some chicken rice. That's like, oh, I take ownership of something happened. I'm still doing my best and being a little bit kinder to myself. But the first thought that would and unfortunately, two out of 10 times still comes to my brain now is of course, you're useless.
That is what the key issue is because you have such strong feelings of self-worthlessness. And with ADHD, we are designed a certain way where things work slightly differently for us, you know, someone may look at my calendar and be like, oh my god, you're super productive because these are guidelines I have kept in place to the quote, unquote productive or manage my ADHD. And this has only come after I've realized that, oh, it is my brain doing this.
It's not me who's the problem. While on the other hand, my brain, because of complex PTSD, is constantly telling me that, oh, you are wrong, you are worthless, you are useless, you shouldn't have been born. And to think about it when you already have some other challenges, which again, it's a spectrum. So some challenges came as a result of complex PTSD or just developed over time. It doesn't lend itself to a very beautiful situation because, yes, you are struggling with organization, you are struggling with executive dysfunction, you are struggling with emotional regulation.
And on the other hand, your brain is constantly butchering you by telling you that you're useless. Of course, you deserve this. Of course, you can't do anything right.
And that is where a very big challenge lies, where you have to sort of separate the two and be a little bit more rational about the fact that let's treat something which I can get treated and while working on my subconscious, like rewiring for complex PTSD.
William Curb: Yeah. Could you speak a little bit on the ACE test there?
Neha: For sure. For sure. This was the test that actually made me realize what adverse childhood experiences are. So ACE stands for adverse childhood experiences. And again, like coming from a cultural context where I come from, these things are not called adverse, they are just childhood experiences. So when I looked at it, it's called ACE and there's a website, you can take a test. There are many websites, you can take the adverse childhood experiences test. And after taking the test, please go back and get your results, like what does the ACE score of three mean or what does an ACE score of four mean? Because people who have an ACE score of four plus, people like me, they have like a 50% higher chance of heart disease, 50% higher chance of substance abuse. So it's called the adverse childhood experiences test.
And I would highly recommend everybody, just everybody has a childhood, as far as I know, unless you're still a kid and even if you are. So take that test because it will shed a little bit more light on what you went through. And in America, I think almost two out of 10 people say they have had like three or more adverse childhood experiences, which is a lot. And 60% of the population of America say that they have had at least one like adverse childhood experience, which is a lot. So there are people who are suffering, who just don't know what to do.
Or there are people like me who don't even know it was adverse. If you have read this book called the body keeps the score, it's a very, very famous book. What he says is from a manifest in our body, even before we were born. And while your brain may seem to forget it, like how I was saying that I don't even remember, your body literally keeps the score. So I think it'll be very, very helpful for people to just take that test, take a step back and be like, Oh, because it will really, really help.
William Curb: Yeah, our bodies learned to cope with whatever was happening. And then now we have this maladaptive thing being like, that's also a danger. And that's a danger. And that's a danger. Because what we thought was safe, wasn't safe.
Neha: Yeah, that's actually the most challenging thing. And that's the biggest thing I want to highlight, because a kid is born into this world with nothing except his parents. And you have nowhere to go. Like human children are dependent on their parents for 18. Some kids are still dependent on their parents. But let's not go there.
But at least I mean, it's not like dogs that you can just spend for yourself after you are a couple of months or something like that. And how my circumstance was that if they are your entire like bubble and the only bubble outside our friends and maybe teachers who also subscribe to the same philosophy of corporal punishment, then a person genuinely has nowhere to go. Because I have told a couple of men I dated or a few of my friends. And because they were aware of my family situation and just my abuser, they were like, Oh, but everything seems so fine. Like, Oh my God, but they love you so much. And they care about you so much. And like, Yeah, but you're not alone with them. So exactly to your point, your body is like, I can't escape the situation.
I have no option but to stay in this life threatening situation. So for you, the whole world is untrustworthy, because our brains are sponges. When we are kids, even before you're born, like how your mother went through labor, or just from the ages of zero to three, when you have not even gained consciousness, what happens then impacts your own life. And it does take a lot of resilience, a lot of therapy, a lot of working with a lot of listening to podcasts like this.
William Curb: Yeah, I know with when I was going through therapy, I wanted to be able to just be like, Well, this is what happened. And now I'm better. It's like, Well, no, that's your body is holding on to it. Your brain is holding on to it. Like, it's not easy to get out of and it's going to take a lot of work.
Neha: It's good, but there is still hope. And I mean, I will say I ran away from home when I was 20. I completed my undergrad on May 24. And I left home on May 31. I was like, I'm out. I haven't gone back since then. And every single time I go back, it manifests as extreme hyper vigilance, PTSD, anxiety, heart palpitations. And I think I speak for a lot of people when I say this, there's a lot of gaslighting, which I really want to talk about, because when you are explaining yourself, it is shouting. But when they are shouting, they are explaining themselves. And there is a lot of gaslighting, which happens, which for a kid, really undermines their experiences.
Number one, their emotions. Number two, and what they end up feeling about themselves, because firstly, it makes you feel that, oh, maybe I am wrong, that I'm being physically abused, or I am wrong that I'm being called manipulative, or I'm wrong, because I couldn't get this math problem right. And except the fact that I may not be good at math, or just I may have ADHD or whatever. And the second thing, what it teaches a child is what your emotions are, don't trust them, because they are wrong. Like if you're feeling hurt, or if you're feeling that I think I was abused, I just got slapped or spanked or whatever, because of something undiagnosed there and not really me, you are told the gaslighting tells you, no, of course not.
No, you are wrong. And the third thing is you grow up with a whole, like you grow up not trusting your own self. And that is really tragic, because the first thing everybody teaches you believe in yourself, self compassion, be kind to yourself. But you are basically told to your entire complex PTSD experience that all your feelings are invalid, all your emotions are invalid, your perception of reality is invalid. And that causes a lot of dissociation.
And it eventually manifests as like you don't know to trust if you can't trust yourself. Then you're like, Oh, am I feeling is this right? Shall I second guess it?
Shall I third guess it? I've never been right. And then the problem is that if there's one out of 10 times, okay, you did some home late, for example, or you did eat that chocolate instead of having your tip in, I always told you that you are this. And then that one thing, you are like, Oh, of course, they are always right. Oh, of course, they were also right. Those nine out of 10 times, as opposed to, okay, maybe this time I was genuinely wrong, because I'm a kid and I did eat that chocolate. But the nine out of 10 times, I was gaslighted.
And this is something very, very important. I want to highlight that if someone around you feels, which in my case, a couple of friends did, but we were what, a bunch of like 10 year old, what could we do? I didn't take it seriously. And I just kept thinking that, Oh, no, of course, it's my problem.
Of course, it's my problem. It's only much, much, much, much later when I spoke to a lot of people, I joined a couple of groups. It's only when I met and found the community that I found out that, Oh, this was not just with me. So I would highly encourage, if you are a kid, there are definitely different resources that you can get into.
But if you are an adult, please go find that community. I mean, it's really sad that you will still crave that validation that I was not wrong. I was not wrong.
Please listen to me. And I kept doing that for like the longest time, like pretty much 30 years of my life. I was like, please tell me that you all were wrong. Like please tell me I was not wrong. And I realized that's never going to come. And even if it's going to come, it will not be told directly to me.
Like it will come and it will be like, Oh, now, but you have grown up, you should move on. This is another very, very important thing. Forget where the source is for like a second, because if you're not going to get the validation from there, don't go seeking the validation instead focus on the treatment. Just think, okay, this happened to me one way or the other. Now my body is suffering, my brain, my mental health is suffering.
Forget the validation because I completely understand the validation is extremely helpful and validating of course, like when you have not been validated for any of your emotions, just don't go chasing that validation because that's just the tail. You have to get treated. You have to get healed. You have to fall in love with yourself. You have to start trusting and believing in yourself because you are awesome and focus on that. It's not easy.
It's very difficult. I'm still trying every single day, every single day, something reminds me it manifests as me over explaining myself in meetings or me not being able to say no, or me people pleasing or me fawning. Like that's the word you always just fawning and appeasing everybody because I'm just like, please don't hate me. I'm not wrong. Like you're sure I'm not wrong. Are you with me? And everybody's like, yeah, we understood your point like 10 minutes ago, you can stop.
William Curb: There's like all the shame involved because like we don't want to go forward with the fact I am baffled by my own shame around having been abused as a child and then being like, oh, I feel really uncomfortable talking around that. I was a victim.
That should not be the case. I should not be like, but nonetheless, I'm like, I don't want people to know about this about me. And it's taken a lot like talking about it on a podcast. Fortunately, I don't have all the people listening at the same time I'm talking about it right now. But it is like, why is that so hard to admit that something bad happened to me?
Neha: Absolutely. And we are not victims. We are survivors. Yeah, because I call myself a victim. And actually that is extremely important. No, no, we are right now saying like, yeah, we are survivors. Being a survivor. And for me to say that has taken four years of therapy and like medicine, you have to accept that you were a victim because as a child, if your family or your parents, the ones who are your whole world are doing this to you, because of that reverence, you just don't feel that you are a victim.
I kid you not and it's extremely sad to say this, but it took me my childhood best friend who knew my family who knew me. She lives in Germany now. And she was the first person who knew my whole circle that I was able to tell and her reaction could have made or like was a make or break reaction. And she told me, may I tell yourself, you were wronged and you are not wrong. And she was like, say this 10 times in front of me that you were wronged and you were not wronged. And whenever I again, you know, to the point of shame or to the point of being guilty myself that oh, maybe it was me, I always say the sentence to myself that you were wronged, you were not wrong. Exactly what you said that I was a victim like these things happen to me.
So this is the first step like even if you Google Like how to get over. Psycho trauma. The first thing is like, you didn't deserve it. Tell yourself this repeatedly. And I cannot emphasize the importance of this more because you will not even begin to heal if you don't know you are hurt. You know, if that makes sense.
William Curb: Yeah.
Neha: If you're like, oh no, my hand is fine. Like there's no fracture, then I'll just wear a ankle brace or whatever. I'll just wear a, and I'll be fine. No, you won't be. That's exactly treating superficially as opposed to the fact that go get an X-ray.
Maybe you have a hairline fracture or something like that. So yes, start by genuinely believing that even if you were 10 year old guy, high on like person, high on cocaine or like whatever, you still didn't deserve this treatment from your caregivers. You didn't deserve to be verbally, physically, emotionally abused by your caregivers in any circumstance. So take a step back, take five deep breaths and sit with this for like a bit. Don't sit with it for too long because then you'll start crying and then that's not the loop you want to go into. But like this is a reality and I have to treat it. And I'm glad that I know this reality so that I can treat it as opposed to being in denial or being in like, oh, no, it's fine. And yeah, of course I deserved it because that's not helping anybody.
William Curb: This realization that part of our coping mechanism is blaming ourself because if we deserve to be treated that way, well, then it makes sense. Yeah. And that's hard to give up because that is now our maladaptive. I deserve everything. Yeah. And like a big root in my like depression that I've had and like because I was seeing a mental health professional for something else and they're like, so we should also talk about your depression too. And I'm like, do we have to?
Neha: Yeah. And like exactly what you said that I think to the fact that when it happens from people who you hold in like really high regard, then it's also difficult to not take the blame, right? Because you are told right and wrong from a certain place. This is the root of childhood trauma. And it's not easy at all, but sort of take a step back and be like, oh, I also had to believe it because that was my only definition of right and wrong. So don't continue that loop again.
Don't project hate. Just understand this happened. My brain and my body are reacting to it now in a certain way and they have. And let's let's look forward and let's get treated.
William Curb: And it's important to also realize that with ADHD, you are more likely to receive these forms of abuse because neurodivergent children are difficult. I mean, I have seen people talk about like, yeah, you can cure ADHD with abuse. And I'm like, no, this is the word. You cannot hit the ADHD out of someone. That is just going to make things worse.
Neha: And as women, that's also very, very important. We are never diagnosed with ADHD. Like, like I was pretty much very shy and reserved, but teacher favorite, everything. There was no way I had ADHD. Like even now, if I go back and tell anybody that I got diagnosed and I'm having medication, they were like, there's no way because ADHD is for teenage boys. It is not for girls who are getting straight A's who are participating in extracurriculars, who are, you know, shy, reserved, sitting in a corner, because sometimes they are masking so much that nobody catches me.
Or if they catch me, then I will be scolded. And women are also trained to be a little bit more submissive, docile and just be like, don't ruffle too many feathers, just go with the flow and just avoid confrontation, conflict. So that's what is ingrained in our brain. So exactly to your point, ADHD kids are anyway difficult to manage. And someone who is not even diagnosed or doesn't even fit the typical criteria.
Not only are you doing injustice by not treating them for the disease that they have, you're also mistreating them for something which is absolutely no fault of theirs. So again, girls have ADHD, teenage girls, teenage kids have ADHD. I have ADHD.
I think a lot of people on your show who are women have ADHD. So we cannot stress this enough and I cannot personally stress this enough. Please take this seriously. And it's not just for jumpy boys. It's as much for super reserved, super shy, super intelligent, super good girls, like quote unquote.
William Curb: Yeah. My daughter has ADHD and she's in this high capacity program and stuff. And I'm just like, but we try and get accommodations from the school for certain things. She does way too well in school to get any sort of accommodations. It's this thing where it's like, if you're not hurting other people, they're like, doesn't matter what it's doing to you.
Neha: I mean, I'm very happy for your daughter that she's able to be in a high capacity position and the fact that you recognize that she has and you are supportive. That's amazing because sometimes that's all you need to be like, oh, I'm not weird. I'm not abnormal or worst case. I'm not my simplicity is not madness.
Yeah. Very, very, very proud of you and happy to know that there is awareness and I wish more people, I mean, I think the generation above us is gone, but at least kids of the 80s, 90s, we are going to become parents soon. So let's have this awareness and I think we can control the future.
We cannot control the past. So I think that's great people like you are inspiring other parents to do that. Like hopefully a lot of other parents can follow this lead as well and could also your daughter, she seems like a complete rock star.
William Curb: She really is. I'm like, man, if I knew a kid like that when I was a kid, I'd be so intimidated. She's good at so many things.
Neha: Like we are also really high achieving individuals. We are smart. I hate this term. ADLB is a wine. No, please. ADLB is not a super power. No, it's not a super power at all.
At least that's my take. Everybody has their own take, but yes, we are extremely intelligent. We are extremely on top of things, especially when we recognize that we have ADLB and if we are not on top of things, then everything will fall on top of us. So again, that is no measure to not get anyone diagnosed just because they are killing it in school, killing it in piano lessons or Russian literature or something like that. Doesn't mean that they may not have it.
William Curb: Yeah. I didn't get diagnosed till I was in my 20s and it was been like, oh, that explains so many things. And I graduated college without a diagnosis, but that was this is the same thing that we were talking about earlier with their shame around. I'm having difficulties. I'm not going to tell anyone because that's just I can't let people know.
Neha: Yeah, I was not diagnosed till I was 30. That was last year. And I have no idea how I was even going to life because since I started having, I don't want to name the medication because everything works differently for people, but since I have started having my medication, I think my life has completely transformed, completely. I personally, medication has worked for me, but even the awareness is so helpful because like you said that you were like, oh, I was so liberated when I got my diagnosis because I was like, oh, thank God, it all makes sense now. And I was like, okay, now I can stop beating myself over. And I think what I always say is stop saying I have difficulty controlling emotions. My brain does this, just even that small separation, even though my brain is not good, but like it's still not a personal failure. It's a design failure.
It's not any sort of thing that you have to blame yourself. I went to business school. I went on my undergrad.
I worked at one of these really big tech companies in the Silicon Valley, in the barrier. Like nobody could say that, you know, she might be suffering because I was masking so much. And that's when I burnt out. I was like this one was like very chill, very like managing my team, managing my boss, everything. And inside I was having heart palpitations. Like no one knew that I was having heart palpitations medication. And I would always beat myself over the fact that, oh, how did you forget this meeting or you were so charged to complete this project?
And now why can't you get it done? Like, weren't you very, very excited about it? Suddenly like my brain would just go blank or I would be, I called it like my brain fog or just brain blindness. And the first time I had my medication and even before that, just the diagnosis was so helpful for me to know that. Ah, and as soon as I had, I was like, I can finally see now. Like I can, it's a very common people say that it was walking with glasses on.
And I was like, Oh my God, I went through some really rigorous programs, some really competitive work environments without knowing that I had. And if, you know, like exactly like how you got diagnosed in your 20th, if he can be diagnosed earlier, then, and if there's more awareness about this, then, you know, like you can start seeing, since you are 10 or since you are whatever, since you are 15 or something like that and not go around beating yourself. So I'm glad people are getting diagnosed, talking about it, even though it might be a little bit like everybody on TikTok has ADHD, but I think a psychiatrist diagnosing you is not TikTok diagnosing you. So please go to a doctor, go talk to a PCP. You can take the test. There are many DSM five tests for ADHD, but please go to a PCP and talk about the fact that if you constantly feel, you can listen to all of the hacking radiations, the episodes to know enough that, am I struggling with this?
Am I struggling with this? You may not, but if you feel like, oh, this happened to me and I don't want this to happen to me, that's a very good start. Like that means that there's a silver lining there.
William Curb: Yeah. One of the great things with the diagnosis is being like, Oh, there is something I can do about this now. This is not just some personal failing of mine. And it's so nice to be able to be able to then focus your energies like, Oh, not that I'm lazy, is that my executive function is completely out. Okay, let's replan how I'm doing this.
Neha: For sure. And you know what? You won't even need a lot of things like setting timer or I realized that it's really like small little changes that you have to do. And just the awareness had so much because what I would tell myself is that I'm so bad at this. Oh my God, I'm so old or I'm such a mess or I was super, super mess last night. No, no, no, no, no, like, and if it happens on a chronic or a regular basis, then that becomes your reality. You are like, I am extremely disorganized.
I'm extremely messy and this is just the way I am. And I'm not never going to get better. And this is against the dequitiz mentality as opposed to, Oh, if you fracture your leg or hand, you're not going to say, Oh, this is just the way I am. And like my leg is just fractured and too bad, too bad. I can't walk because my leg is like, you know, you're not going to say that. You'll be like, let's go to a doctor. Let's get in a cast. It will come off in six weeks.
And then I can do physical therapy and walk. So please treat it exactly like that because not only are you struggling, you're also adding that additional layer of beating yourself over it, which is not helping anybody. This is not the first thing that I realized that I will stop doing because I was like, who are you helping by not being on your side exactly?
Like, who exactly are you helping with this? Not only is your executive function, the way it is you beating yourself over it is not making it any better. So what will it take for you to, okay, if we are so far from self-compassion, but what exactly will it take for you to at least be on your own team?
And that was like, oh, okay. When I struggle, maybe I need a timer or maybe when I lose track of deadlines, maybe I just need to put everything on my calendar. Or, you know, if I'm late, maybe I just need a buffer time. That's 15 minute buffer time before and after.
And that's not rocket science. The amount of self-blame that I was putting throughout business school, because I said, everybody's doing so much better and I'm just useless and I shouldn't even be in business school. And no, because everybody was struggling in some or the other way.
I was struggling in my own way. And then you add another dollop of like there's fire and you add oil to it. So please don't add oil to it. There's a fire already. Let's call the fire brigade, like let's figure that out instead of, you know, oh, let's add some more gasoline or some more alcohol on top. Don't do that.
William Curb: Often we try and fight so hard against our ADHD and it's like, that's not going to work. We got to figure out how to work with it.
Neha: Yeah. I'm actually very curious to know like your thoughts as what do you think? I mean, and you have interviewed a couple of people, which actually in your experience, like either with the ADHD or just like what has your experience and not just your personal, but like just your observed experience being in these Kumar vegetations.
William Curb: I mean, I think the awareness piece is really important because as we were talking about, there's the shame involved and it's hard to acknowledge that something happened to you. The awareness is like, OK, I'm not alone and I'm not going to be further shamed for having had something happen. And then also just the need to escape from the idea that it needs to be this huge thing. You know, like if I wasn't in a war, then why would I have any problems? And you know, what's great is those people feel the same way.
They're like, well, I lived through the war. Why do I have? You know, we're always trying to compare ourselves and be like, if I don't have the most trauma out of everyone, then I should be fine. And we have this like big like I should be fine. And it's like, no, I want to be fine, but it's going to take some work. It's going to be hard. Yeah.
Neha: I think some of these words are so loaded that you are like, oh, of course, I'm not. There's a very good so on Netflix. It's called the maid and it's very, very powerful because this girl is emotionally abused by her boyfriend and she refuses to go to a domestic violence shelter because she's like, I'm not abused. I'm not domestically abused. It's for people who actually need it. So I don't want to take up a bed or I don't want to take up a room because I was not abused. He just hit next to me.
He didn't hit me. And that is so powerful because and she has acted like extremely well, which was annoying because she maintains such a stoic front because that's how your life becomes. You are like, let me just survive. Let me just go through the motions and survive. And I don't care how like the refusal that again, how you said that, oh, I went, of course, this happens to somebody else and I was not domestically abused.
Maybe like the way that comes with these words is too much for people to recognize, but it is important that we do. And I mean, I would encourage people to see that because he goes through the same experience where she has PTSD, symptoms of PTSD. She develops depression. She developed anxiety, but she still is in complete denial because everybody takes her boyfriend side, including her own parents. And not only she in complete denial herself, everybody around her is like, oh, you're overreacting or this happens between couples or he really didn't hit you. You don't even have any bruises.
And that's what she's like. I don't have any bruises. Why can, how can I even go to domestic violence shelter? It is for people who are actually hurt. Exactly how you said that I'm not traumatized. You know, like people are like, I have lived through this and I'm not traumatized. Like we all feel that, oh, no, we are very tough and resilient.
I think we will be a lot more tough and resilient when we are able to recognize that this happened and now we are able to get ourselves treated and get ourselves out of it as opposed to just like staying in denial because that's the suppressing emotions and it will manifest in not ideal ways. If you don't catch it, then you can.
William Curb: Yeah, you also can't always expect to get something from your abuser either. Like my wife has a family friend who's no contact with their own mother because they're like, I confronted her with what I thought was the issue. And she said that never happened. So we get the gaslighting and then they're just like all my wife's parents and stuff. They're like, why are you being mean to her? She was such a great mom. And it's just like people are more than just one thing. You can have someone who loves you that also hurts you. And that's what makes it so hard.
Neha: Yeah, we can have a whole episode on gaslighting because that is what makes it extremely difficult because when you confront the like, oh, I don't remember. Or this never happened. Or your perception of this is completely different from what I actually intended. And I would like to tell people who are suffering like two things. One, it doesn't matter what the intention was. It can be I want to make you the president, for example, if that's why I did this to you. It doesn't matter.
Or I really loved you so much that I had no option but to do this to discipline you. It doesn't matter. It was still wrong.
It shouldn't have happened. And on the other hand, again, you will get gaslighted. If you have been gaslighting the past, it may happen again. So there is no point chasing something which is very, very elusive because what that does is it creates a loop of invalidation. And then you are just stuck in that loop of invalidation because you keep going back to confront, expecting an apology or expecting some acknowledgement because it does help if something goes wrong at work and someone is like, I'm so sorry, I shouldn't have spoken over you in that meeting. You're like, oh, thank God, like, good, we are on the same page. Yeah, it's okay.
No worries. But if someone completely denies, you are like, oh, anybody will think that my experience was invalid. So exactly don't fall into this negative feedback loop of just invalidation, gaslighting, invalidation, gaslighting. Just try to steer away from that. And again, the focus should be on like focusing words because if you get them to accept one thing, you may not get them to accept something else.
And it may take a lot of effort for them to even get to a place like my abusers have now gotten to a place where they're like, okay, fine, it happened. Who cares? You are now so successful. You are living here and you are, you have a great job or you have your own business. And it didn't impact you, right? Like this is the narrative. There's no idea that I'm taking ketamine treatment for PTSD and that I'm on antidepressant for the last three years. There is no acknowledgement.
And again, I'm beating on a dead horse, but don't focus there because the gaslighting, yeah, we can do a whole episode on it, but the gaslighting is real. It happens. It's just not happening to you. It happens to everybody.
William Curb: I just want to check if there's anything else that you want to cover before we wrap things up.
Neha: Please take a step back to one of those adverse childhood experiences test. It will really shed some light on who you are, where you are from. If nothing, just do it for fun. That one normal, like everything was great. Go thank your parents. Go thank your society and your friends, everybody, but just do it because it will shed some light on a lot of behavioral patterns and sort of take a little bit of blame away from you to like, oh circumstances, like it's nature versus nurture.
Right. So like it will take a little bit more to, oh, this happened to me. What can I now do about it? So take it with a pinch of salt, but also just be mindful that if it reveals something about you, you can sort of step into it. So I would highly recommend everyone to do that. And I would highly recommend the parents of tomorrow, my generation, for for punishment is not the answer. If you are abusive or if you keep saying mean things to someone, especially a powerless kid, then improve in that moment. But if you don't even explain why you just suddenly were mean to them, a, they don't realize what they did wrong and then B, they will just submit because they're scared of you.
They're never going to submit. And how can you come out of that relationship with them not antagonizing you? So just be mindful of that, that it is not only a horrible way to discipline, which will impact them. It will also spoil your relationship with the kid. So everybody's losing in this situation. Patience is best and mental health is real. So please take everything seriously, focus on the treatment as opposed to just isn't something you'll never get.
William Curb: Sounds good. Well, thank you for coming on and talking about this. I know this is a difficult topic and I think a lot of people are going to get a lot out of it because it's something we don't always hear about. That's really important to talk about.
Neha: Of course. Thank you for giving people like me and other people who have complex trauma or just any other form of mental illness and how it manifests and co-exist with ADHD. Thank you for your work. Thank you for highlighting this because it's all a spectrum. There are no labels. So it's very, very important to address so that you are not like, Oh, I don't have this, I don't have that. So thank you for all the work that you do.
This Episode's Top Tips
One way to evaluate the impacts of childhood trauma is through the Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE) test, which can help access what many of us might just think of as a normal childhood. It’s important that when we’re looking at our ADHD we also consider issues like complex trauma which can exacerbate the symptoms.
Even if it feels like we don’t have big T trauma, it can still play a role in how we manage our ADHD symptoms - we also often have a tendency to try and minimize the impact that trauma can have on us. It’s important to remember that trauma isn’t a competition and everyone is going to respond differently.
It’s vital for us to recognize that if we were harmed we’re not to blame and that if we’re trying to seek validation from our abusers we will often be met with gaslighting. It doesn’t matter how the abuser feels about the situation, and can instead focus our energy on treating ourselves with compassion and healing.