Meditation Misconceptions and ADHD Realities with Kelly Smith
In this episode, I'm sitting down with Kelly Smith, a yoga and meditation teacher who has ADHD herself and has guided over 23 million meditations through her incredibly popular podcast, Mindful In Minutes. Kelly walks us through why meditation is especially beneficial for the ADHD brain, what to realistically expect from starting a meditation practice, and how even just a few minutes a day can sharpen your focus, reduce impulsivity, and make executive functioning a bit less exhausting.
We explore practical advice on how to start meditating, even when you’re convinced it’s not your thing, and break down the misconceptions that keep a lot of us with ADHD from ever even giving meditation a try. Kelly shares her insights on the best meditation styles for ADHD brains and introduces us to practices like yoga nidra that go beyond the mat and offer deep restorative rest—something I’m pretty sure we all could use more of.
William Curb: Really excited to chat with you about yoga and meditation and mindfulness. But I think a really good place for us to start would be talking about this dynamic between ADHD. And I know for a lot of people, they're like, well, I have ADHD, I can't meditate. Whereas I know there's like a lot of research saying that it's actually incredibly beneficial for ADHD. So can we start off with this idea of the dynamic between them?
Kelly Smith: Absolutely. So first I want to be a testament to someone who both has ADHD and is also a meditation teacher that I promise it is possible to meditate if you have ADHD. I often joke, but I'll say when people tell me, oh, you know, I can never meditate, I have ADHD. I always say that's like saying I'm too dirty to take a shower. Like what studies tell us is that one of the best things you can do for the mind, the neurodivergent mind, the ADHD brain, is to start practicing single pointed concentration, which is what the practice of meditation is.
And so it's such an easy way to create this micro habit that is then supporting our brains in a way that help us to have greater, higher cognitive functions and this executive functioning, the ability to focus, to regulate our emotions, reduce our impulsivity, which all those things apply for me. I can't speak for you. But my lived experience with ADHD is like, check all those boxes.
I need some help with them. And so I love being able to weave meditation into my day to just support my mind and the other minds out there with ADHD in a way that feels easy, simple, seamless and also short. It only takes a few minutes. But yeah, definitely meditation is phenomenal if you have ADHD.
William Curb: And I think that there is a huge piece of why people have this idea that they can't meditate because they have this like pop culture idea of what meditation is. And they're like, oh, you go off to this room by yourself with no stimulation for an hour and they're like, I could never do that. It would be so boring. And it's like, we need to get beyond that idea and understand, yeah, you don't need to take an hour or however long you imagine meditation takes.
Kelly Smith: Yeah, there's a researcher, Sarah Lazar out of Boston. She does a lot of research on meditation in the brain. And she's actually found that between eight and 12 minutes a day is enough to get the physical, mental and emotional benefits of meditation. And so even if you go on the short end and you just say eight minutes a day is enough, I always find that to be reassuring. And I also always like to encourage people and remind them that meditation isn't this practice of like turning off your brain like a light switch.
It's not like you magically go to this place and you flip off all of your thoughts that your mind will instantly become quiet. It's about focusing on one thing at a time. It's like if your mind's a light bulb when we're walking around all day long, the light is turned on, it's shining in all directions. But then when we meditate, we're turning that light bulb into a laser pointer. And we're just focusing that laser at one thing. You will get distracted and then you'll come back.
You'll focus for a few more moments, distraction, come back. And it's about bringing yourself back every time you get distracted. And then over time, the length between distractions will start to expand. And you'll get better at being able to take that laser and focus it on one thing, whether it be your breath or a mantra or a body scan or the sensation of loving kindness. You can choose what you point that laser at, but it's not about just magically shutting off the brain.
William Curb: This idea of eight minutes a day. So I imagine people are either thinking eight minutes sounds like a lot or they're thinking that, oh, yes, not that much. Or, you know, how much can I break that up? Because I imagine there are kind of limits. Like if you did like 16, 30 second meditations, probably wouldn't have as much benefit as doing something more. But what kind of like routine would you see with trying to get in eight minutes?
Kelly Smith: Think of it as if you are starting up some kind of a new movement routine, right? If you were like, you know what I want to do? I want to start moving my body and whatever. There's a back for my days when I taught fitness, whatever the status. You also get 30 minutes of movement a day, like five days a week, I think, is kind of the status or 150 minutes a week of exercise or movement.
Getting up and walking around the block 1 time in a day is better than zero minutes a day than just sitting there and being like, well, I can't walk or jog or do whatever for 30 minutes. So I might as well not try. Think about meditation as that same thing. Like you said, OK, 16, 30 second meditations. Is that necessarily going to be as effective as sitting for eight minutes straight?
I don't know, maybe, but also maybe not because 30 seconds of trying to practice single pointed concentration, especially for the ADHD brain, is better than no minutes. And that's every time you sit down, you try to take that laser pointed at one thing. Practice single pointed concentration. That's going to benefit you. That's going to train your brain to be able to do that outside of meditation as well. Would we ultimately work up to being able to try to meditate for, let's say, eight minutes at a time?
Yeah. But doing short little bits throughout the day, if that feels one more manageable, because I know sometimes we get kind of that overwhelm, freeze response. And if something feels unmanageable, we're like, I don't know what to do here. So if that feels more manageable for you, amazing, do that.
But anyone listening, I would also challenge you to if you've never done meditation before, just put on like an eight minute guided meditation, even a five minute guided meditation and just see what happens. I know for a lot of us, we're probably listening and thinking, oh, eight minutes, that sounds like a long time. You might surprise yourself because, again, it's not about being able to just sit there and magically turn off your brain, have this super hyper focus. For eight minutes, maybe that happens to you, but it's about get distracted, come back, get distracted, come back, get distracted, come back over time.
So I'd recommend that people try it and see what happens. Also, I think maybe even two, five minute meditations maybe at the beginning of your day and before you go to bed, could be a great place to start as well. But if you are someone with ADHD, I really recommend also starting with guided meditations because you don't have to try to figure out, quote, how to do it. You just hit play and listen to the guide, walk you through it. It's going to feel so much more manageable. And I think you might be surprised in how quickly those minutes will go past.
William Curb: Yeah, I can definitely see that, particularly guided meditation being a great place to start with, because I know personally I have a lot of trouble getting into things if I don't know what I'm doing. And then the idea of just, OK, you're going to just sit there and have someone tell you exactly how to relax. That sounds fairly manageable. This is also making me think about there are a lot of different kinds of meditation. So even within guided meditation, I imagine that you can hit a number of different things. Can we talk a little bit about different kinds of meditation, what people might look for? And especially where someone with ADHD might want to be looking.
Kelly Smith: Absolutely. So like I said earlier, we're taking that laser pointer. We're pointing at something, single pointed concentration. What you can point that laser at. There are so many different options and that in and of itself can feel overwhelming. When you're like, well, I don't know. I've heard about the positive meditation. Should I do that one? What about loving kindness meditation? Should I do breath work? Should I do a mantra? Should I? I don't know what any of those things are. Should I? I don't know what I'm doing at all.
And it can feel so big and so overwhelming. And what I always kind of recommend with my students, especially if they're first starting out and you're like, I don't know where to go. Is yes, guided meditations, but within that, a guided meditation just means someone is guiding you through a practice. But the practice they're guiding could be any technique, any style, any lineage. I think looking for something like a body scan is really great because it's something that is tactile. It brings you into your body. So out of your head where you have these swirling thoughts and you're just scanning through different parts of your body.
I do think that breath meditation, so something that's going to focus on your breath is going to have a similar effect. It's also giving you something to do. And often we feel like, oh, I need something to do. It'll kind of engage our brain in a way when we feel like, OK, we're breathing. We're following this breath pattern. It'll give you something to kind of help stick with it. And then something that has kind of this guided imagery, or if it's something called like a journey to self love or visualize your ideal day, something where you're going to be kind of imagining or listening to a little bit of a story can be a great place to start.
And then I also love mantra or affirmations when you're first starting, because that's where you're going to have a series of these positive phrases that you will repeat to yourself again and again and again. There's other styles, things like a present moment meditation or like a mindfulness meditation, ones that have a lot of what I call like open space in them. Where it's like, OK, sit with your thoughts. And that can feel so difficult at times, especially with minds like ours, where you're like, what do you mean? Just sit there and then our brains are like the hamster in the wheel spinning, spinning, spinning, spinning.
It's like, give me more to work with than just, OK, begin to breathe. And now just sit with your breath for five minutes. That can feel really unmanageable. So I love things that maybe move a little bit faster or have more guidance. Again, that's going to be like a mantra, something that has kind of an activating breath sequence to it, a body scan, a visualization. I think those are great places to start. Also, meditations to help you fall asleep at night, because I'm sure a lot of your listeners have experienced.
And William, I would love to, not that this is my podcast, but I would love to hear if you have practiced meditation and what that experience has been like or where you find your mind tends to be the most scattered. But for many, I know it's at night where you're trying to fall asleep at night and that brain is just like, go, go, go, go, go. Put on some kind of a sleep guided meditation gives you something to listen to. It'll just turn the volume down on that chaotic mind and help you fall asleep at night. So those are my recommendations. But I'm really curious, William, like, if you've dabbled in meditation, like what your thoughts are. I want to know about it.
William Curb: I'm definitely dabbled. And it's like one of those things that's always on like, oh, yeah, you should do that again, especially when you're very stressed out, which is also very funny to be like when you are stressed, it feels so far from what you want to be doing. I've tried a number of the meditation apps and done a lot of that. I remember there was there was a while that I did headspace fairly regularly. Sometimes I have to help my kids go to sleep. We have this app called Mashi that tells like sleep stories, but it also has meditations on it. And so I'll do those with my kids sometimes.
Kelly Smith: I love that. Were there any styles or like certain techniques or practices that you felt like this works well for me? Or sometimes I feel like we learn the most from what we don't like. Was there anything that you were like, this is really hard for me to stick with just in your personal experience?
William Curb: Once the like the ramp up of things where it's like it went from that initial like, oh, this is getting you into things. And like, they're like, OK, now we're going to do like this 20 to 30 minute one. And I'm like, that's really hard for me to now find the time to ramp into that. And so that was probably what really often led to things coming down. Just the change in life and then being like, oh, I'm not forgetting to reintegrate things into my life.
But I think the body scans have always been nice because it really gives you something to really focus in on. Although one of the funny things I find is I've done like group meditations with people and then they ask you like how things went afterwards. And so I'd get into this very meta mode in my head where I'm like, oh, I'm in this good state.
Oh, this is something I can talk about afterwards. And then I'm thinking about this and I'm like, oh, no, I shouldn't be thinking about this. I should be going back to where I was. And so I actually find like the group stuff really doesn't work well for me because I get too focused on the fact that I'm in a group.
Kelly Smith: That makes so much sense, Janine. And I've heard that before too, where people feel like if they're in a group setting as well, that they almost get like, there's just more going on. Like whether it's like the ambient sounds of people like rustling around or shifting and they're like, oh, what's happening over there? Or there's just more activity happening when they're in a group. And so I've heard that feedback as well that sometimes kind of doing a more individualized practice just works a little bit better. And you get to be sort of in control of like, I feel up to five minutes today. So I'm going to do five minutes instead of like a group class where then you're kind of at the teacher's mercy.
William Curb: One of the places also that I find really helpful was like doing it first thing in the morning, not even having gotten out of bed, just sitting in bed and like counting breath for a couple of minutes and then being like, oh, this was a much nicer way to wake up and get started rather than just trying to get into things. But that's as we were talking earlier, we have kids and that's not always the option in the morning. Sometimes it's like, oh, I'm going now.
Kelly Smith: My kids wake me up every morning. It's like, no matter what we do with the sleep routine, they're very little. Someone's going to wake me up in the morning. Absolutely. And so I always tell people when you're building a meditation habit, if you don't have kids, I've always told people like the first five minutes of the day or the last five minutes of the day is probably like your best bet because all the other minutes between I just woke up or I'm about to go to sleep could be this big mystery.
And it's like, it's something where then you're like, I'll get to it today, but you never get to it. That's just, you know, let's be realistic. It happens to me too. Sometimes we just never get to it. But the exception is if you are a parent or maybe you work like irregular hours for your work or something, if there's another time, like for me, it's usually when I have, again, my kids are little, so kind of that dual nap time where maybe I have that like one little window of like 30 to 45 minutes overlap or like everyone's in their respective rooms. Like that's my time.
But just finding a time where consistently every day, you sort of have a similar routine and you can just weave a few minutes of meditation into that routine, like habit stacking in a way is going to be really beneficial to help you not only cultivate the habit, but like sustain it as you go.
William Curb: Yeah, absolutely. Because yeah, we are trying to find time to do things or when there's time, well, do it. And like, that's not how my day works ever. I find there's just always stuff to do. And when I'm not doing stuff, I'm like, well, I don't want to add something right now and I want to take a little bit of a break. And even though this is a very restorative practice, it still feels like it's a task. It's not doing nothing.
It's always funny. I'm like, yeah, that would be like, as I'm saying, I'm like, yeah, but this is the kind like often will go on walks during my day to be like, OK, this is I need to I can't focus on what I'm working on. I need to go take a walk for 10 minutes up and down the block and I'll be much better focused. And this seems like a thing I could slot in there too.
Well, I can't go on a walk today because like this week I've been sick, so I haven't been wanting to go walk. So would be have been better to be like, OK, let's do something to level out my brain. Yeah. And I was thinking like, yeah, when I was really well into the routine of meditation, it was like run the Headspace app while I was at the gym. I was working out at the YMCA.
And so I just go and sit in the chapel for 15 minutes before my workout and do the meditation. I'm like, oh, yeah, that. And I'm like, oh, that's was like very like habit stackie. Very easy to have a nice quiet place there that no one's going to bother me. I think I stopped because they started locking the chapel for non-things. I was like, oh, why are you why? This is great.
Kelly Smith: Oh no, that's such a bummer that they'd lock it. Be like, this is my meditation space. And also so great that there was a space like a quiet space like that and a gym at the same time, because something that can be really helpful for some people is to kind of couple. And when I say other people like, I mean, other people, the ADHD is to couple movement and meditation together, but often the other way. So moving first, almost like, you know, kind of getting, you know, my house, we'd say, oh, let's get the wiggles out, right?
So like get your body moving, kind of get some of that true kind of like hyperactivity out of your body. And then when the body has moved, is maybe feeling a little bit more fatigued then doing a few minutes of meditation. I have had other clients and students that are neurodivergent that have found that to be beneficial or they feel like they can just kind of get into that space a little bit more to do their movement first and then meditate. But it can be hard in a gym setting because gyms are loud, they're busy.
There's just a lot going on, usually a lot of like loud music. But that's something that people like if you're moving at home or going for a walk, maybe walking and then when you get back sitting and just noticing if that doesn't kind of help support your ability to focus and to be able to sit in meditation for even a few minutes.
William Curb: Yeah, I do find like that after having gone out for a walk, I can focus. And then I could really solidify those benefits with doing a little meditation time. One of the other things that I had wanted to talk about with these nonphysical yoga practices like yoga, neetra draw that goes along with this. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Because I've heard about some of it, but I haven't really explored that idea too thoroughly yet.
Kelly Smith: Yeah, so there is for any of my yogis listening, there's this idea of what's called like the eight limbed path or the eight fold path when it comes to yoga. It was first introduced by this guy, Patanjali, who's kind of like the grandfather of yoga and like thousands of years ago in the yoga sutras. And it talked about sort of this eight limbed path. And we're very familiar with one of these eight limbs or one of these eight folds, which is something called asana, which are the poses or the movements.
So we're very familiar with that one. When, you know, if I were to say the word yoga, the first thing you would probably, you know, that would pop into your mind would be like a down dog or some kind of a pose or an asana. So that's one of the limbs. That is one eighth of what yoga is. Then we also have the amas and the ni amas, which is kind of like how you interact with yourself and then how you interact with the world around you, which I love those because yoga itself is so much more than just, you know, how bendy can you be?
And this is sort of a chronic frustration. Sometimes I have also been a yoga teacher is that it's like, there's so much more than that. Like, are you really practicing yoga? You're really bendy on your mat and then you roll up your mat and you like walk out into the parking lot and you're jerked to someone out there. You know, you road rage someone on the way home from yoga class. But so you have the yamas and the ni amas, which is how you treat yourself and how you treat and interact with the world around you. There's a thing called pranayama, which is breath work.
So that's going to be kind of that intentional manipulation of breath in some way. There's different, many different breath patterns. We also have meditation is one. We have concentration, which is one. We have the same called samadhi, which is sort of like union with the self. And then we have pradhyahara, which is withdrawal of the senses. So we have our one eighth of, you know, there's no test on this, but we have our poses, our movement.
And the other seven eighths are really sort of this non physical piece, concentration, meditation, single point of concentration. And then yoga, need to, which is a practice that I love. It's like one of my true loves in life. It is one of the deepest and purest forms of pradhyahara or withdrawal of the senses that we have. And withdrawal of the senses just means like turning inward and giving ourselves a senses or like a sensory break. It's like taking the senses, either turning the volume down on them or hopefully like almost like turning them off completely, turning inward and taking this journey into a deeper part of ourselves.
So yoga, need to translate to the word, translates to yogic sleep. And the idea is through this practice, it feels like a long guided meditation. If you were to come to one of my local yoga, need your practices here, you would get like bolsters, blankets, you would lay down on your mat. It feels like a yoga sleepover. And you just listen to the sound of my voice for like 45 to 60 minutes. But what you're doing is there's like a certain technique that you use in yoga, need to put the body to sleep.
So, you know, our bodies obviously are the ones that are taking in the sensory information that we have. So the yogic sleep part is trying to put the body to sleep while still sort of keeping that consciousness awake, allowing us to turn inward and really connect with our truest, most authentic selves. The definition would be that yoga, need to is a intentional journey inward through the Kosha's or the layers of our being. And we can come face to face with the true self or ottoman, where you plant a positive seed of intention within.
But when it comes to talking about like ADHD or the neurodivergent mind, one of my kids is both like sensory sensitive and also sensory seeking at the same time. And the more that I learn about my child and let me know if you've ever had an experience like this, too, it's like you find yourself then seeing it in yourself and you're like, oh, my gosh, wait, I experienced that, too. As an adult, I just never knew that that's what it was, you know, that it was some kind of like a sensory sensitivity.
But being able to have this intentional practice where we can just give the senses like a break, just like let them sort of turn off for a while is for me such a beautiful and magical practice because it feels incredible. And for many people I've heard, they feel like they can truly relax in a way when they sort of let the senses go offline.
William Curb: Yeah. I mean, that's very much echoes what I learned about Yoganidro was hearing people tell me, I was like, oh, I have a lot of trouble napping and like actually relaxing and stuff. And they're like, oh, you should look into this. But then it was also like going online and being like, oh, that looks very
Kelly Smith: Long?
William Curb: Yeah, long. I'm like, that was not what I intended here. Then being like, okay, I'm gonna do this thing. Oh, that's too much. I will come back and then just never come back. But yeah, because it would be nice to be able to do that kind of relax and have that restorative aspect of a nap without actually napping because that doesn't work for me on lie there and be like, okay, very tired. Now my brain is going at 1000 miles a second and I cannot keep myself in bed at this point.
Kelly Smith: When you fall asleep at night, do you have to listen to something to fall asleep?
William Curb: I usually like read myself to sleep. I'll like read some fiction and let my brain not focus on if I start thinking about the next day or doing any kind of planning, it will keep me up.
Kelly Smith: So my two favorite things and I feel what you just said so deeply because not only do I have an ADHD brain, but I also have like a mom brain, which is, you know, that there's like a million bajillion. If you were to look at my web browser right now and there's probably like 50 open tabs, that is what it's like also being a mom or kind of being like the primary parent and having these like 50 tabs constantly open, like keeping things organized for your kids and all of that.
And my two favorite things to do to fall asleep is either read myself to sleep, usually fiction, or listening to something that is like completely unrelated to, you know, it's not the time I'm going to listen to a podcast where I'm going to necessarily like learn something. It's just like I need something to sort of redirect my brain. And so I've heard from a lot of people that doing a yoga, need you at night with the intention to fall asleep can be really helpful.
And we sometimes do need those longer practices at night when our brain is really busy, you know, five minutes will be gone and like the snap of a finger and then you're like, oh, my meditation is over, but I'm not asleep yet. And so sometimes you can use yoga needra as a way you'll see different things online from different teachers as to whether or not it's quote less effective if you fall asleep to a yoga need your practice.
My two cents is without our basic needs being met, like getting quality sleep, we can never take a journey to the truest self, like our body is going to prioritize our basic needs. And then then we can start doing some of this deeper work. So this is what's helping you to fall asleep and stay asleep, do it, go for it. That's amazing. So a lot of people enjoy doing it at night with the intention of like by the end of this, I'll be asleep and they find it to be really helpful.
William Curb: Yeah. And I can see that because I've been thinking about this in regards to this idea with the one of our brain systems that doesn't turn off. And so it's one of the reasons that we get distracted so much is because it is hard for us to separate our brains into work mode and more like free flow mode. And then that also I find translates into bedtime where if we don't have enough stimulation to go to sleep, it can be very hard to get our brains to be like that it's looking for stimulation. And so that's that's why it finds the thought patterns.
It's like, Oh, here's something that's going to keep me going. And not always a helpful way to do it. So I can see definitely like doing the having a little bit a little bit more stimulation going to sleep, like with listening to something. I know I use like a weighted blanket and that's helpful. And just having that extra little sensory bit can help quite a bit for going to sleep.
So someone's listening to this podcast and they're thinking, okay, this sounds like something I want to do. What would the first steps you be suggest someone to start going kind of down this path to learn about doing meditation? Because I know when I first hear about things on podcasts, I'm like, that sounds great. And then I'll like, do a Google search. And I'm like, this was a terrible idea. I don't know what to do.
Kelly Smith: Yes. Okay. So these would be my recommendations. Some of my favorite places, one of these recommendations is self serving, which would be my podcast, Mindful In Minutes, which is only guided meditations. But I say that with a little caveat. I know people are so sensitive and they should be to the voice that is leading them. I do think a guided meditation is the best place to start.
And it very much is that just like hands off, hit play, find something that's five minutes, and then just let them walk you through it. So of course, I would love everyone to come and join me. Like my purpose in life, I feel like is to just help people feel better and make life a little bit easier for them through guided meditations. But also I understand that people are looking for something specific and they're really sensitive to the voice. And so it's about finding a teacher that you feel like when you hit play, you're like, oh, this is great. This is it. I can get into this.
So of course, I want to invite everyone to join me on Mindful In Minutes. But I also really like the Insight Timer app because that is a place where tons of teachers can upload their practices. There's a free version and then there's like a premium version. That's maybe like 80 bucks for the year. But you can download the free option. There's tons of practices. And you can search by like topic, time. I want to, I mean, they have like thousands of teachers on there. Not in a way that feels overwhelming, but in a way where you can kind of try out different teachers.
And then you can find someone whose style and voice resonates with you. And then you can kind of click into their library and there'll be a lot of different options. And it's easy to kind of save or start the practices you like or the teachers that you like. So that's one of my favorite tools. And it's free. YouTube is also really great. Tons of great creators putting guided meditations on YouTube. I would recommend searching the amount of minutes that you want and whatever the topic is. So you could put six minute guided meditation for anxiety.
You could put five minute body scan meditation, seven minute morning meditation. I found that's the best way to search in YouTube is the number of minutes you want and the topic that you want. And you will get a lot of really great creators that are putting free practices up on YouTube as well. So those are kind of my where to start recommendations.
It's low stakes, free, easy to access and just start. And if you go on Insight Timer, for example, or you click through a YouTube video and you're like, ah, that was okay. Or I don't really care for the sound of the voice, there will be more. And it's really about finding a teacher whose voice resonates with you that you find to be calming, grounding, centering and whose style resonates with you as well.
Because even if you're just starting and you don't necessarily know what you're looking for, you'll know what you and you'll know if you hit play and you're like, that worked for me. And that's amazing. You don't have to know what their lineage is or what specific techniques they're using per se. It worked for you and that's amazing. You kind of save and bookmark that one. So those are my recommendations.
William Curb: And then along with that, I was just thinking, especially with this idea of that worked, what should people kind of expect for things to be working? Like, I hope most people aren't expecting to hit Nirvana after five minutes, but what kind of benefits from just a single session would you think people would experience?
Kelly Smith: Yeah. So I want to separate that question into two different answers. I want to talk about the benefits, like what happens in the short term and the long term. Again, ADHD, if my brain forgets, help me circle back to that one, William. But I think the initial question is kind of like, how do you know it's quote working? Or what should you look for in a way?
What should you feel? Those types of things. So the first thing I would encourage people, and this is going to be hard, I want you to one, put less pressure on yourself. And I want you to be a little more hands off as to quote, "did that work?" What I will say is that for many people, if it quote worked, two things will happen.
One, you'll be like, I kind of liked that. You're like, Oh, that was kind of nice. Like, you'll have like a sort of a net positive feel to it. And two, you will feel like, so the thing that that first, when you first start to meditate, is you have to look in the little moments for the benefit. And what I mean by that is you'll notice like, hmm, just feel a little happier today, just a little bit.
I was driving this, I, you know, I did a meditation this morning, I was driving to work, someone cut me off, usually that would really make me mad. And I was like, wow, they must be in a rush. Or like, you know what, my kids, because you know, kids have this ability to like push you to the absolute brink of your sanity. And you're like, you know what, my kids drove me to the edge of insanity.
And I was just able to tolerate it better. So you're going to look for the little things at first, because what happens when we're meditating in the moment, even for a few minutes, is that our brains, what happens is the amygdala. So the pain, fear, worry, anxiety, part of the brain, the activity decreases there. And then the prefrontal cortex, like the part of the brain, like right behind your forehead, which has to do with a lot of like emotion regulation, focus, memory, higher executive functioning, more activity goes there.
And specifically in the ADHD brain is that our brain patterns go from more scattered, right? We know when we're taking these brain scans at many people have ADHD, they'll just have kind of more activity, this random sort of like sporadic brain activity. It's going from sort of a less chaotic pattern into a more focused pattern in those key regions. And that's what's happening in the moment, even with just those few minutes. What's going to happen over time.
So that's why I say in the beginning, look for the benefit, look for it working in like the little moments, the little things. Over time, what happens is that the amygdala will actually begin to shrink or atrophy. And for so many of us, the amygdala is overactive and enlarged. And that's because when we're in this chronic fight or flight response from anything, our bodies can't distinguish between, Oh, I'm out on a hike and a bear just crossed my path. So I'm going to go into fight or flight because this is a potential life threatening situation versus flipping on the news and seeing something really distressing, even though you're not technically in the life or death situation, you're going to have the same response to it.
Or I was using the example because this one gives me anxiety. Before I worked for myself, your boss emails you and just says, Hey, can we talk? Hey, can we put some time on the calendar? And you're like, Oh my gosh, I'm getting fired. This is the worst thing ever. What do they want to meet with me about? Your brain is doing the exact same thing in all those different situations. So over time, the amygdala, it will adapt our brains change. They adapt and it'll go, Wow, there's a lot of danger around here.
I need to start firing faster and I need my responses to be bigger. And so our amygdala will adapt over time. So meditation usually after about eight ish weeks between eight and 12 weeks is when you could actually see a measurable change in the amygdala. And you'll see that the prefrontal cortex will become bigger denser.
And it gets more of like those folds, which means there's more surface area for neurological activity there. So in the beginning, you're looking for it in like the little moments. And then over time, we'll actually be able to see a difference in our brain. And that's when people start to sort of see that change trickle into other aspects. It's not just, Oh, I was driving to work and someone cut me off and I didn't care as much.
That's when they'll be like, I'm just happier now. I feel like I'm able to focus better. I feel like I get into sort of that flow state a little bit easier. I feel like I'm a little, you know, I'm just generally less reactive. It's going to be more in the long term.
William Curb: A lot of thoughts here happening for me. One is that reminding me of that term I forgot it earlier, which was the default mode network. We have all that brain activation all over. Yeah, also this remind me of the book I read, Dan Harris's meditation book, 10% happier. It's also like, yeah, it's just 10%, which in my brain is both a very, very large number and a very, very small number. And so it kind of like some days I'm like, Oh, that's a ton. And other days I'm like, 10% does nothing.
And it's all relative. And but yeah, I can see how that like having that looking for the smaller things can be very helpful because it's not going to be the thing where you just the idea of enlightenment and getting to Nirvana and stuff is not really the goal for what we're trying to get here.
Kelly Smith: No, and I would say that if we're even, you know, zooming out and looking at meditation in general, it's really not the goal period. It might be a nice byproduct. I mean, I've been doing this stuff for 10 years and I certainly can't say like, Oh, I've done it. I've reached enlightenment because what happens is it's kind of counter intuitive, but you don't want to treat meditation or like unlocking these parts of yourselves as like this video game where it's like, Oh, I finally beat like the boss level. There is no like boss level where you can just be like, Okay, amazing check, like whatever your goal is, I'm enlightened now.
And if someone's trying to tell you different that they're like enlightened, like danger, but also like, Okay, today, like finally, I just woke up one day and I was like, I have mastered my ADHD. It is no longer a thing that bothers me anymore. Like I beat the boss level, I've mastered it. And it sounds so cliche to be like, Oh, it's not about the destination, it's about the journey. But think about it as like, there's not necessarily a specific endpoint that you're going towards.
It's about having these small changes that do end up growing into big impacts in your life. So again, just take some of the pressure off of like, just like, just don't worry about it as much. And I know that can be hard to do. But it's not as serious as you think, it's not always necessarily as deep as you think, but it can be extremely beneficial and profound. But no, you're not going to sit down in five minutes and be like, I've unlocked all the secrets of the universe in those last five minutes, when you're first starting, you can have really profound experiences.
And I don't necessarily recommend this method for everyone. But I at one point, lived with like a group of monks for a while and like for a couple weeks and had to take a vow of silence. And I was learning this one really specific style of meditation from them.
And we would have like hour blocks of meditation. And I'm the kind of person where I need to do like immersive learning. So for me, if I'm like, yeah, like, take my cell phone, do the vow of silence, like I'm going to, you know, hyper fixation, I'm, you know, I'm going all in on this. And I remember there was a point where kind of towards the end of my time where I was sitting and I was meditating and it felt like, oh my gosh, I kind of just felt like, oh, I really was like deep in my meditation. And I thought maybe it been, you know, 20 minutes since I had like opened my eyes, like peaked at the clock and seen like how long it was.
It'd been over 90 minutes. And it's because when you are able to withdraw the senses, again, Pradhyahara withdraw the senses, we only know about the passage of time through sensory input. So for example, while we've been sitting here chatting, I can see that the sun in my window was over there. Now it's, you know, shining in my eyeballs because it's changed or like, I heard Mike baby waking up next door.
So I know, oh, time has passed. But when you shut down all the senses, you practice that Pradhyahara, you turn inward with that intentional introspection, you don't have the same sort of passage of time. So you can have really profound experiences like that. But even those are few and far between. And it's not like you beat that boss level. It's like, Oh, that was a cool experience.
William Curb: Not all profound experiences are always good feelings. Like I've read about people like doing that where like, Oh, I've discovered a bunch of trauma in my past. And it's like, Oh, you got to be very mindful of that as well.
Kelly Smith: Absolutely. And as you're just first starting, like not to scare anyone or anything, but as you're first starting, sometimes stuff will come up not necessarily like, you know, in five minutes, where you necessarily be like, Oh my gosh, you know, I found all these repressed memories. But something that I like to do is a practice that's like an intentional check in. And it's very much just like, you're sitting, this would be an unguided practice that I would recommend for anyone. But just sitting, taking a few deep breaths, asking yourself, How am I doing?
And something that is so powerful about meditation is it is teaching you how to observe without judgment. And so truly asking yourself, How am I doing without judgment, observe, whatever comes up, ask yourself, then how is my body feeling today? Or what is my body telling me today? What is my heart telling me today? What am I thinking about today? And you're going to observe without judgment.
Often, that's where things will come up. But it might be like, I am exhausted. You know what my mind, my heart, my body, everything is saying, I am burnt out. I'm running on empty. And then then maybe you could dig a little bit deeper and be like, Why am I so freaking burnt out right now? And it'll give you some information. But I personally love that practice, because it helps you to actually tune in. We often are moving so fast. And we're on to the next thing, on to the next thing, we're, you know, obsessed with doing in our society.
And we never just take the time for like being instead of doing. And with that, we're always sort of doing this outward input or like, you know, taking in sensory information. And we never just stop and be like, What's actually happening within me? And that can be so powerful, tricky, because often what comes up, a lot of times people don't slow down for the first time. And they're like, Oh my gosh, you know what I found? I found that I'm amazing. I have like the best mindset. I am full of like self love and unconditional love for everyone in the universe. And like, I'm so optimistic about everything. That's not usually what happens.
Other things are going to come up. But without that awareness, you really can't do anything about it. Even if your awareness is like, Oh my gosh, I my brain, you know, the, the ADHD is ADHD'ing right now. And like my brain is so busy, like I can't stop talking thinking about what I have to pick up at the grocery store later today. Without judgment, you're just like, Wow, I really am worried about that grocery store today. Hmm, that's interesting. But like, that gives you that awareness piece, which is so essential.
William Curb: Yeah, it is also fun to then go like, Oh, I am really worried about that. Why am I so worried about that? What is like driving.
Kelly Smith: It's the thing.
William Curb: Yeah, it's like, Oh, because I was going to be having dinner with my mom. And I really want to make sure that we have the right food because we have the wrong thing. She'll mention it. And I don't want to deal with it. And like, Okay, well, maybe I need to deal. This is something I should talk to my therapist about.
Kelly Smith: The amount of times I have seen my therapist and I'm said, Let me tell you about this thing that popped up for me while I was, you know, while I was checking in and trying to quiet my mind is like, it keeps her gainfully employed. I'll say that.
William Curb: Yeah. And I also was like, Yeah, that we are often so busy that slowing down to check in with ourselves. One feels like, Oh, I can't do that. I need to keep it going. But it's like, No, this is how you hit burnout. This is how you hit that place where your brain goes. Well, you weren't slowing down enough. I'm going to make you. And that's a much worse place to be. And then doing it on purpose.
Kelly Smith: Absolutely. And so maybe to circle back way back to if you're just starting, like, where do you start? And of course, like I gave my personal recommendations for like where to go. But even everyone listening, you know, and I imagine that we're all listening and maybe doing something at the same time going for a walk, folding laundry, doing dishes, you know, in the car, whatever it is.
But as soon as you're done doing your thing, and you're done with this episode, like maybe just even three minutes, four minutes, and then just set a timer on your phone. If you need to take like three big deep breaths and just do that practice, what is my body saying? What am I thinking about? What's in my heart? How am I actually doing? And just observe the answers without judgment.
William Curb: Yeah, sounds like a really good place for people to get started. Is there anything you want to leave the audience with?
Kelly Smith: Cut yourself a little slack. You know what? I bet you're doing so much better than you think you are. Chances are you're doing the best you can with what you have. If you're feeling tired right now, it's probably because you're tired. Lushes all try to be a little bit nicer to ourselves today.
William Curb: That sounds like a very good message right now. You mentioned your podcast earlier, and you could mention that again, and anywhere else people can find you online.
Kelly Smith: Oh, thank you. Yeah, so if anyone wants to come meditate with me, I would love to have you. My podcast is called Mindful in Minutes. There's over 500 guided meditations over there. Almost all of them are under 20 minutes, many of them as short as five to eight minutes. And then I have a podcast for anyone listening who is pregnant or in the postpartum period of their life. It's called Meditation Mama, and it is only guided meditations for that phase of someone's life.
And then just the website, it's yogaforyouonline.com. That's where you can find, you know, just click around there, see if anything speaks to you. But my email is also there. Send me an email if you have questions. You can DM me on Instagram, also yogafreeonline. I love to chat about this stuff and answer questions.
William Curb: Awesome. Well, thank you for coming on and I feel like people get a lot out of this. I know you can get so many benefits from just a little bit.
Kelly Smith: Thank you so much for having me, and this chat has been the highlight of my day.
William Curb: Awesome.
This Episode's Top Tips
Start small and aim for just 5-8 minutes of meditation daily. Research shows even short practices can significantly benefit the ADHD brain. Choose a simple focus, like your breath or a body scan, to help redirect your wandering mind.
Remember, meditation isn't about silencing thoughts. Accept that distractions will happen, and when you notice them, just gently try to bring your attention back to the practice itself.
Try performing regular mindful check-ins by simply pausing, taking a breath, and asking yourself honestly, "How am I doing right now?”