Welcome back to the second part of my conversation with Saman Kesh - In part one of the conversation we covered a lot of the ground around Saman’s ketamine treatment and how that influenced his ADHD.
And just as a quick reminder, this is not a condemnation nor a defense against ketamine-based treatment, the conversation is simply about what his experience was. And if ketamine treatment is something that has piqued your interest, be sure that you are following up on that under proper medical supervision, this isn’t stuff to play around with.
In this second part of the conversation, we switch gears a bit and talk more about our identities with ADHD and the acceptance of our ADHD. We also get into some other therapy techniques like EMDR and other ways that we can work on supporting our ADHD brains.
William Curb: Acceptance has been like such a huge piece of like my ADHD management just being like, Oh, I'm not doing this because of fucking ADHD. Maybe I should try doing this a different way. And like, being like, Oh, I change up the task order, I use these other tools, makes things so much easier. And with what you're saying there, it's just making me think of how we work with the default mode network. But with neurotypicals, task mode goes on, default mode goes off. That does not work for us...
Saman Kesh: Yeah
William Curb: Task mode goes on default mode still going and...
Saman Kesh: It's the left right brain fight. So I do EMDR in therapy. I think I talked about this last time too, where it's all about getting the left side in the right sided hemispheres of your brain talking on just a brain communication level, what we struggle with and why it's called like ring of fire when they do the MRIs and stuff of our brain. And of course there's different, it's not just ring of fire. There's all different types of ADHD that they can see with an MRI. But like the reason it looks a little like maddening compared to like a neurotypical brain is because our left right brain, we burn ourselves out so much, not being able to hand off between left and right.
And so EMDR is interesting for me. It's again, another sort of treatment that was for PTSD and there's no drug or anything. It's literally just like, for example, my doctor just does this with her finger on my screen and I have a really big screen and my eyes go left and right and she gives me a word or something I say sticks to her and she goes, okay, think about what you just said and follow the line. Right. And basically what it does is it's while you're talking out loud, while you're thinking, it's kind of gaslighting the left and right part of your brain, talk to each other. And so the ADD pressure is gone. This part's gone. The executive function trying to regulate and desperately do its job is kind of not shut down, but it's sort of like bypassed a little bit because it's task oriented. You're doing a therapy.
So it's a really fascinating thing that I have learned. But yes, the DMN is something that I, the default mode network is something I remember when I was doing micro dosing. There were studies about rewiring because the default mode network is not like a, you're born, that's it. It's literally like the simplest way of putting it is the default mode network is still unique to us. It's still like the, I guess the layman terminology I think is like that I can find an adjacent relation to is like muscle memory.
Right. And so a lot of people when they would do micro dosing, they wanted to rewire the DMN. They wanted to not reexamine, but like remove the "autopilotness". And I think again, like the things like wall of awful, the thing of like being really reactive or shutting down or, you know, feeling lots of shame, the people pleasing, that's all not coming from a place of decision making. It's coming from a dis-regulated source that is automatic. It's like an automatic response.
And so I think the whole DMN and the task oriented side, that's the problem is that that's the DMN side kicks up and then we're trying to do this other thing and you're going in the wrong direction. You know what I mean? And that's often, I'm sure we all experience like we say we're going to do this and like literally five minutes earlier, we said we were going to do that and we say what we're not going to do and we do exactly what we're not supposed to do and not what we're supposed to do. And it's just like, what just happened? Then it's like, again, it's like, is it the pressure of us saying we're not going to do that? And we just counter willed our way to the other thing?
Or is it just like you couldn't help it? You were so scared and nervous that you just couldn't think straight. And I think that again, these terms we use like muscle memory, not thinking straight, we're trying to organize the patterns of behavior. And I think the DMN is a really fascinating, I kind of love what DMN is because I like that it's not just saying this part of your brain, this is why and that's the science. It's kind of like a terminology for a pattern, right?
The task is terminology for pattern. And we kind of know the parts of the brains that generally light up in most of us, not all of us. I like that because it can be constantly adapted. And you can take it into your own life and kind of learn through that. And I'm a person where I like gamifying things. I think I play a lot of video games and I find like even moving in my career, like talking to managers, trying to pitch a movie, like when it's life and stake, I'm a loser, I'm a failure, I'm dumb, I'm not good enough. When it becomes high stakes life or death, I don't think anybody, regardless of ADHD, do well, especially people with ADHD, because we're just so we have a default negative way of thinking, mostly because of, you know, how we were raised in the past. But I think that gamifying, like almost like, you know, kind of having your own unique way of experiencing kind of like the words thing I was saying when I was on ketamine, you know, like an association and creating a fun task out of it. And so for me, it's kind of like gamifying.
I love like every day being like, I discovered a hidden passage, you know, the default mode network and this, you know, the biome thing is tripping me out. I'm really curious. I'd like to learn more about that to wrap up kind of the ketamine thing on my end. And you know, I'd love to hear your thoughts if there's any questions you have about it, because I'm sure you've talked to a lot of people who've been doing medicine and things, you know, experimental kind of medicinal stuff.
I'm down to answer anything because I'm sure there are people listening that are just really curious to kind of hit the highway, you know, rather than go on the side roads really slow. So my sort of wrap up of it is I, we just need to be left to flow. Like it was crazy how at peace I was not trying to control flow. And again, that term flows all I can think. And I remember I had a movement in my hand when I was trying to search for the word and it was a little bit like I was on Molly or something, but it was like the rolling, rolling hills kind of, you know, doing the wave with my hand.
And it was just, but it was like, not straight. It was like doing this. And I don't know if, Will, you experienced that, but like, like, do you have those experiences where it's the opposite of a task oriented thing? And there's something that just feels incredibly natural to you? Like...
William Curb: Yeah, just like play stuff, you know, we're doing, I play like Ultimate Frisbee and, you know, doing a game, you know, I'm not thinking anything about anything else just right then.
Saman Kesh: Yeah. And do you think it's because it's stimulating? Is it because like, besides the physicality of it, like, how does that, what is that association that you think does that?
William Curb: I think it's the immediacy of what I'm doing. There's time I've played and, you know, I'm like thinking about like what I'm doing next. That is a bad day. But when I'm just focused on, okay, what am I doing next? How am I getting there? I think the physicality is a piece of it for me. But there's definitely times I've been like writing and I'm just in the zone for writing. Like, I can see what I want to make and I'm just doing the words are coming and I'm like, it's just there. And I think it's just the letting myself separate from the anxiety of what needs to happen, what I want to do and get separation of just, hey, this is now. And now is all that matters.
Saman Kesh: Yeah, I think that's fascinating. And I think, yeah, it's like, there's definitely the body component. It's a lot harder to sort of run away in your thoughts when your body is worked up. And and I think exercising is super key. And like, I think, like absolutely, and must do, I think, especially with ADHD for everybody, but definitely with ADHD. But I think there is something, I mean, but maybe it's also because you like Frisbee, you like the sport, I'm sure you get better and better at it. And you like kind of, you know, and also it's a team, right? You have teams, right? So, you kind of have to engage with the team.
There's a little bit of like a selflessness to it, right? Because you got to like support your team and work together. And, and, you know, I'm assuming that, but it's like, if I were to put myself in that, I wouldn't have the time. I wouldn't be able to like function in that situation by just kind of thinking about what I need to do or what am I doing here or whatever, you know? I think the Frisbee thing makes sense. It is a removal.
There's not a lot of room for you to feel shame about it. I guess, you know, like compared to maybe task oriented type things, but like, what do you think's happening when you're in the zone? And you're like, not just in the zone, but I guess I'll say, you got it. You're just like on a role and you're like, whoa, like, why can't every day be like this besides the, you know, you've let go of the anxiety, but what do you think maybe taking it step further? What do you think's happening there when those moments occur?
William Curb: It's often like, I know exactly what I need to be doing. It's not, there's no question of like, oh, should I be visiting myself here? Should I be positioning like, oh, I need to be running here so that I can get to that point before that guy gets there. Thinking about it like, oh, yeah, when I play like defense, that's where I get it. Like, I'm just, you know, figuring out how to where the disc is going on the field and how I'm going to get there. And it's seeing not just that step right then, but the next step and being like, how am I going to make this series of events occur so I can get to where I want to be?
Saman Kesh: Just to clarify, like when you think of step one, step two, step three, I don't know if you've ever seen Sherlock Holmes where he's like doing the math. Is it like something very visceral where you just know step one, step two, step three?
William Curb: Yes, there's no checklist. It's just I'm moving here because this is where I need to be.
Saman Kesh: Yeah. So yeah, that's very ADD. I love it. It's just that magical, like just know. And I think that getting in that state, you know, is just so, it's so hard, especially since like society, it doesn't work that way. That's not really how society likes working. I guess, aside from like creative stuff and sports and things, but okay, well then let's take that now and let's move it into when you're, when you said you were like writing or doing something that's at your desk. Why do you think there are those moments where there's this clarity? There's sort of like, I know, like again, the ultimate frisbee, like I just know they're there and there. Like, what do you think's happening in that moment? Because there's more pressure there, right? What and why do you think that's happening?
William Curb: Yeah, it's a little bit harder because that is like, I do think it is that say very similar, like, oh, I see where I want to go. And I've suddenly seen the path how to get there. Like, you know, I'll be writing and be like, oh, so this happens a lot when I'm rewriting something. I'll be like, man, this is not working. Oh, this is what I need to do. This is, this is the argument. I totally just biffed this the first time. The real argument is this. If I take these pieces from that and just rewrite it, then it's something. It's not what I thought it was. This is I've figured out what the underlying message is that I thought I was making.
Saman Kesh: Yeah, that's interesting. And this is all retroactive. But like, yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, because I think, I think like that is something that I'm sure everybody has there, like, I got it today. I don't got it today. I'm always wondering, like, how do we, how do we sort of like re encourage or re obviously we can't force that. But I'm always trying to tell myself, like some stuff, like, for example, things like, it's okay. It's okay to not have it today. Just kind of get through it is hard because it's easy to go.
I don't got it today. And then I'm sure there are times where like, I mean, you've experienced this too, right? Where like, you say that, but then somehow you forget that story that you've just created and you crush and you're like, what, what the hell? And it just shows how it's amazing and beautiful, how kind of just chaotic and random and out of control, like, you know, you don't have control of when you're on it or not. But it was, it's also kind of like, for lack of better, how do I weaponize that in a positive way and kind of recreate that in self inspiration and clarity. I guess like clarity is probably the best thing I can say, right? Because that's the connection I see between the writing tasks, the same focus at your desk tasks, while also the ultimate Frisbee, it's like this, just shut up, you know, and you do it.
And there's something really, yeah, like, what the fuck is that? It's so and why are we so good at that? When that happens, like, I claim that if we could recreate, put that magic bottle, like put that in a bottle and give everyone this elixir, where they have that clarity, I think everyone at ADHD would be on a whole 'nother level. You know, because there is something, when you're on it, it's just like, I've seen other people say it, I've watched other people at ADD have that experience, where just when when they got it, you're just like, what the hell did you just do? You know, how did you do that?
William Curb: But I've seen ADD described as a disorder where it's not where we don't know what we're supposed to be doing. But I think to take it a step further than that, it's that we know where step one is, and we know where step seven is, we don't know two through six. And that's the killer, because we're just like, what do I do now?
Saman Kesh: Yeah, and then it's an overwhelm. It's like an overload, because if most people go, okay, how do we break down? We want to get this done. I need to go to the store. Okay. Oh God, there's a million steps though. I can't just get there. Oh my car, you know, like my car, oh, it's low on gas. That means I got it. Oh, oh, shit. Now I gotta go get gas. Oh, I didn't get the timing right. You know, but it's like, then it just spirals instead of like, okay, cool, pause the worry. Let's just go Spock mode and just go, here's the logic. Right? Like we, it's, there's that emotional component that just completely terrorizes the process, you know? That is interesting.
And I think what you said is like then what not to focus on. I mean, like, I remember someone saying that, you know, when people say, like, when, you know, when people like, just flippantly kind of just say like, oh, like I ADD or whatever. And, and it's weird because it's like, what we're learning is that ADD is not actually about the scatter part. Like even though that is how it was diagnosed and what we were told and how people kind of still think about it, it's really that sort of insane focus. Like to the point, even though like we can switch gears on accident, like there is this focus and we're stuck on that thing, you know?
But then we get lost in that thing too, you know? So there's the moment of hyper fixation clarity. And then there's the hyper fixation, no clarity, you know? And the, the myopia, you know, can be good or bad. And I've always found that interesting to be, and to tell people that is encouraging for myself, even when I say it out loud, cause it's like you have that ability to focus. And it's kind of your job to find the stimulus, you know? And part of it is just, do you like what you're doing?
We're not gonna always like everything, but I think there's a way to get yourself to enjoy it. And I'm curious, like I would say, let's give ourselves some homework. And the next time that you're on a roll in the flow, log down and I'll log mine as well. And we can like regroup. And because I bet you if we can just stay in the pre, cause I've been practicing this thing, there's this app called iMood, which maybe I brought up last time actually, and it's how you track how you're feeling. And you can set it to give you reminders, but it's very often we don't remember a lot of the positives. We remember sort of the chaos because we're wired to against the trauma. We remember the trauma because we wanna stay alive, right? But now that we don't have Saber Tooth Tigers, we're wiring ourselves for just things that are nonsense. And also made up when we think people think things of us, that's not even real, we're just great storytellers.
So, but we believe it, right? So I think that I use this app and I'm trying to incur, I've noticed one day, all of it was negative. Everything was like a three out of 10, a four out of 10, a two out of 10. Like I'm like, and I just remember the beginning of last year, telling my therapist like, I should really log my positive stuff, right? And she was like, yeah, like you need to like, like try to do an exercise where you log only positive, you know? And I was like, that's interesting. And so I try and it's hard because when you're in it, you're just like so good, you, I'll do it later, I'll do it later.
And it's really important to log it. So I'm wondering if like, maybe that'd be a fun homework for us, but on like the task oriented side of it, when there's just an absolute clarity, not just joy, but just like, I'm crushing. Whoa, you know? Let's write it down, you and I. And like, maybe we can figure out like, what's the pattern that's happening in that day? What did I eat? What did I do? Did I drink alcohol the day before? Or is it just straight up like, it's all associated to a type of emotional thing. This person was near me and I have a love. And so I realized, oh, it's love. It's other people actually. It's, you know what I mean?
Things like that. Like for me, it's community. Like even talking to you, I feel, life feels so much warmer to me, you know? Because I'm like, so many times I'm like, go away, I wanna play some Baldur's Gate 3. I don't wanna talk to anybody, you know? I'm like, 80 hours into Baldur's Gate, go away. You know? And then I'm in a pitch room pitching and I seem like the most social person ever. And a lot of it is because like, yeah, I'm getting my shit out, but I'm also like connecting and I'm seeing the reality. The actual connection with people is the reality, not the relationships we create in our mind.
And I think that applies to us as well. So I wonder if, you know, because I think both of the examples you told me, they go to a point where it's like, cool, you've shut off the panic. It's just off or you forgot about it and you're in the zone and I'm just curious because I have a theory that it's not all hearts and flowers and shit. I have a feeling we are wired as like, you know, again, I say the hunter, but like that sort of throw a spear, kill a pig kind of vibe, right? Like that sort of unexplainable genius. I think we're wired to four things that are a little nerve wracking.
I think for example, I think deadlines, I think we are wired to actually bump against deadlines and do a good job. Even though that sounds like, no, that sounds just as stressful. We have a deadline, uh-oh, da-da-da-da-da. And I'm gonna mess up. I can't get through one through seven, you know? Like, I don't know what's gonna happen, but I do think there is still some of that anxiety there. I bet, I bet you it's not just full peace when you do it. I'm sure there's like a, you know?
William Curb: We know that people with ADHD perform way better in a crisis than neurotypical people do typically. Not everyone, some do not, but a lot of them are like, oh, I'm finally getting the stimulation. Like we have like a ton of people who like work in, there's like a really high percentage of people with ADHD that work in ERs.
Saman Kesh: Yes, and also in paramedics.
William Curb: Yeah, because like that is the stimulation they need to like do it.
Saman Kesh: Yeah, firefighters are like that. I mean, a lot of people in the military are like that, but it is a shame that many are undiagnosed or many are diagnosed with the stigma. And you know, they're not surrounding themselves with people that are open to understanding what it is. And we're all just trying to understand it, but I agree with you. I guess what I'm getting at is like taking it back against trying to, again, it's the whole like, everything is out of order in this conversation.
But I think piecing it all together, there is this sense of flow and there's this sense of like, why is our mind allowing us to have this clarity? We're not taking it. I'm almost positive we can all agree that we're not going, fuck you, I'm being clear now. No, it's just happening. We're probably somehow in charge of it, but we don't know. We're not thinking about it. It's just happening. That's the superpower part, right? I don't wanna say ADHD is the superpower.
I think that's diminishing the hardships, but that is the superpower part. And I wanna tap into that more. And I do believe there is the sense of flow. I do believe there is this like, enjoying going, like for example, like when I'm working on, I'll give you a creative example. So like, I have to make like shot lists or sometimes when I'm doing a story, I'll create story beats, but there's a list of an A to Z. Now, just like you're one to seven, right? But it's not logical, it's creative. So then there's always these doubts of that's bad. Oh, is that following like the structure, the hero's journey, I'd fuck the hero's journey.
I don't need the hero's journey. It doesn't always work. Those are where the wall of awful kicks in and you just don't get anything done, right?
William Curb: Yeah
Saman Kesh: But then there's these times where the same ping pong happens, but there's zero judgment for whatever reason. And there's a lot more of, ah, that inspired number two. And then number seven, okay, why am I here? Oh, maybe I need number three. Then I go back to like, it's this auto, not autopilot. It's just this like shut up calculator. I actually know what's right. We gotta figure that out. And I'm very curious. So yeah, like maybe we can encourage everybody listening to like write down like what the fuck, when they're in that mode where they're like, I got it, I'm a million bucks, you know, aside from after you take your meds. Because we all know we feel like a million bucks, right when we take our meds.
William Curb: Well, and it's also interesting to see, I know for a lot of like hyper focus things, like I can have like the best day ever. And then the next day, just the worst, because I pulled way too much.
Saman Kesh: It like erases the positive day before. It's like that bad day is like, oh, that's reality. And it's like, no, there's probably something in between. You know, it's like the Buddha smile, right? Like the real happiness is this like kind of chill, cool. You know, that joy, that ecstatic. That's not reality to be always there. And it's also not reality to be at a pit.
But yes, I think what you're talking about is something that happens to me as well. And I think I was talking to this Norwegian ADHD coach. She told me, she was so amazing with her view of ADHD that she studied primitive cultures view of what we would consider ADHD. And one thing she said, and I was telling actually my assistant yesterday, I was having this conversation that people who are really sensitive, the term sensitivity, there were people who said that there was a tribe, I think in Scandinavia, where there was a saying that like, you accept a lot, but you cannot give up a lot, you know, or something like that.
I don't know what it was, but it was basically like, imagine, you know, your intake, like a big hole, something going in, but then you have a bottleneck at the end and things can't leave. I remember Hertz saying that we hang on to things. And that's a metaphor in our bodies. It's a metaphor in our emotions and trauma, but it's also a metaphor in just the calculator too. Like it's all wired to like hang on to this story and some weird survival glitch. But basically, I think we burn ourselves out. I think it's why they don't recommend coffee for people with ADHD, because even though it has the same effect on us as others, that what's not the same, the same immediate effect, what's not the same is we poof through our neurotransmitters, gone, you know?
And so you can, unless you know you're showing up to like a fucking sketch comedy show and you just need that two hour burst and then you don't care that you're off, like that's not sustainable, you know? And so I think what you're saying is that, right? Where you kind of, you went almost so hard and you didn't have like a self boundary that the next day you cracked.
William Curb: You're just borrowing from your future reserves of executive functions.
Saman Kesh: Exactly, that's some executive function shit right there. That's the self regulating. And again, it's funny how we have tools to help us. Like I have a calendar every day says 1 p.m. eat. That almost never happens. It's either my girlfriend telling me to eat or my assistant telling me to eat or I'm angry for some weird reason and I just realized I need food, you know? Like baby Saman just needs food and he's throwing a tantrum, you know?
William Curb: It is really funny how I'm like, oh, I eat, I will feel so much better. I should be doing that.
Saman Kesh: Yeah, I do really like the idea of this homework and I kind of encourage and see if people maybe engage with that, but it's a nice positive exercise on a therapeutic level. But I think that together we can kind of figure out like what that is because it's unique to only us and we can only explain it. And it's why I think all of us when we, another example is, have you ever talked to an ADHD person and you talk over each other and somehow you fully understand each other while you're talking over each other, but no one else in the world works that way, you know? Like there are those weird things where the science says you can't hear another person if you're talking over them, but for some reason we do. So what is that, you know? Not saying there's no science.
I'm just saying, I think the science is still left to be explored. And so I think the next time I'm on it and I'm crushing the script or I'm in a pitch and I'm like, this is great. Why is this great? Why am I in the zone? What's happening? And like do it a bunch and then let's reconvene and let's have that be our follow up. What do you think?
William Curb: Yeah, I think, cause yeah, I mean, we want to know these things. It's not just ADHD management is more than just crossing things off our to-do list. It's feeling good about it.
Saman Kesh: Or meds or just like make sure you eat food on time. There is a, our relationship to it, right?
William Curb: Yeah.
Saman Kesh: And like even the way you talk about your life, like even when you talked earlier about your Christmas and things like that, like I'm fascinated by how genius, you know, people with ADHD are where like we can really just really bend the logic of things to how we can understand it and process it.
That is unique to us. That's something in meds and just working out and just none of that's gonna work. Like that's not, not gonna work. That none of that's going to be the end all, you know? It's part of it is our own relationships to ourselves and our pattern recognitions. And I think the only pattern I can recognize is like a sense of I'm around a like-minded energy, you know? And I'm not feeding off of that.
It's just somehow incubating a safety for some reason or maybe a purpose, I don't know, you know? But I think that, but sometimes when I'm writing, I'm all alone and I'm on it and I'm on a roll. Like meaning I feel all, I feel like you got this, you don't need anybody else right now, you know what I mean? Like that kind of emotion. I don't say those things to my head, so.
William Curb: All right, sounds good.
This Episode's Top Tips
Recognizing and accepting ADHD as a part of your identity can be a powerful step toward managing everyday challenges. That acceptance is a huge piece in how we are able to navigate problem-solving and finding solutions that work for our brains.
Therapy is a great way to help work with our ADHD brains and we there are a lot of options for what we can do - CBT, DBT, EMDR and talk therapy are all ways that we can approach to understand our brains better.
There are a lot of ways that we can help ourselves work with our ADHD like physical activity, meditation, and other forms of self-care that can help reduce our ADHD symptoms and increase our overall well-being.