The Optimization Trap with Jaye Lin

This week I’m talking with Jaye Lin — ADHD podcaster and community builder — who brings a uniquely grounded perspective on what it actually takes to work with our brains instead of constantly trying to outsmart them. I got to know Jaye at the 2024 ADHD Conference in Anaheim, where we met at a party hosted by the Attention Different crew (that’s an upcoming podcast with them as well). It was great because I had already been introduced to Jaye through her excellent podcast on Understood.org Tips From an ADHD Coach on the Misunderstood: ADHD in Women channel. And it turns out she’s been a long-time listener of this show, so some great serendipity with us running into each other.

Jaye is a former Google Administrative Business Partner, where she co-founded the ADHD-Women@Google employee resource group and became their first ADHD-trained peer coach. She has recently returned to corporate life but is still coaching, advocating and podcasting on the side.

In our conversation, Jaye walks us through the concept of the Optimization Trap — a sneaky little loop that many ADHDers fall into where we spend so much time planning and perfecting an idea that we burn out before we ever start. We get into why finishing often matters more than perfecting, the cognitive cost of creative over-planning. We also talk about how optimization shows up in everyday life: at work, in relationships, when packing for a trip, or even when choosing a podcast mic.

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William Curb: Welcome to Hacking Your ADHD. I'm your host, William Curb, and I have ADHD. On this podcast, I dig in the tools, tactics, and best practices to help you work with your ADHD brain.

This week, I'm talking with Jaye Lin, ADHD podcaster and community builder who brings a uniquely grounded perspective on what it actually takes to work with our brains instead of constantly trying to outsmart them. I got to know Jay at the 2024 ADHD conference in Anaheim, where we met at a party hosted by the Attention Difference crew. That's an upcoming podcast with them as well. It was great because I had already been introduced to Jay through her excellent podcast on understood.org, tips from an ADHD coach on the misunderstood ADHD and women channel. And it turns out she's been a long time listener to this show as well, so that was some great serendipity with us running into each other. Jay is a former Google administrative business partner where she co-founded the ADHD Women at Google Employee Resource Group and became their first ADHD trained peer coach.

While she did step away for a bit, she has recently returned to corporate life, but is still coaching, advocating, and podcasting on the side. In our conversation today, Jay walks us through the concept of the optimization trap, something that she came up with. It's a sneaky little loop that many ADHD years fall into where we spend so much time planning and perfecting idea that we burn out before we even start. We get into why finishing often matters more than perfecting the cognitive cost of creative overplanning, and we also talk about how optimization shows up in everyday life, at work, in relationships, when packing for a trip, or even when we're trying to choose a podcast mic. I had a blast in this one, so I hope you enjoyed as well. If you'd like to follow along on the show notes page, you can find that at hackingyouradhd.com. All right, keep on listening to find out how you can stay out of the optimization trap.

William Curb: So we're going to be talking about this idea of this optimization trap. I would love if you could introduce this idea first, because I'm sure people will have no idea what we're going to start with.

Jaye Lin: It's funny because the optimization trap was essentially the reason why I started my podcast. I had stuck it in this learning program that I was creating for ADHD individuals. And even the people who were like, I think I know everything about ADHD. I've been diagnosed for over 10 years. I've done all the treatments. I've learned about it a lot. That made me really scared that they were in my learning program because I wouldn't like, are they going to get anything out of this? Even those people were like, whoa, learning about this has changed everything.

This is exactly what I do. And then they said, well, I haven't been able to find anything on the internet about it to show my friends. And I was like, oh, well, this is original content. So like I didn't take it from anywhere. And they're like, well, how am I supposed to explain this to my friends and family? I was like, oh, it's a really good point. And so I started a podcast. That was kind of like the beginning of everything.

But it is something that I considered such a major challenge for almost everyone I know with ADHD and a lot of the difficulties in the workplace or kind of like fights that people have with their family and their loved ones stem from challenges from the optimization trap. So what it is, is a tendency to really go deep in the optimization phase.

Kind of the brainstorming, coming up with ideas, finding the perfect solution to things. And the way that I'll explain this is a normal dopamine process for neurotypical individuals is like chicken parm, where neurotypicals will say, oh, I've never made chicken parm before. I think I'm going to make chicken parm today. And so they look up a good recipe. They go to the store. And during this whole time that, ooh, I'm going to make chicken parm gives them a little bit of dopamine each step of the way.

So they say, ooh, I want to make chicken parm. And then they're like, ooh, I'm going to go find a recipe. Ooh, I'm going to go procure all the ingredients. Ooh, I'm cooking chicken parm and doing all the steps. And then they eat the chicken parm for dinner. And they're like, wow, that was pretty good. And they get like a big boost of dopamine at the end, saying like, hey, job well done. And then they want to do it again. Right. So that's the normal dopamine process.

But where it affects eight individuals like us is that when we get dopamine, it feels really good because we have lower levels of it. And so we want to stay in that dopamine central. But we get the most dopamine when we are exploring something creative. And so when we say, ooh, chicken parm sounds really interesting, what can happen is now we're being flooded with this dopamine that feels really good. And so we want to keep chasing it.

So we look up chicken parm recipes, chicken parm cooking videos, like the best tests of chicken parm, what the best strategies are for making it. And we do this for hours sometimes. And then after a few hours, we get depleted and we get tired of looking at it. So we move on to something else. And then it's like five o'clock. It's just like, oh, chicken parm. And so we run to the store, but we didn't prepare anything. And we pull some random recipe that we were looking at because we didn't decide on which one was the best one for us to use. And at the store, we're anxious, we're disorganized.

So we aren't that effective. It takes a long time. We come back, we're scattered. We're anxious about getting dinner on the table. And so by the time we eat the chicken parm, it's like 9 p.m. And considering we spent six hours today working on chicken parm, it doesn't taste as good as we thought it was going to taste after all that optimization. So we don't feel good about it. We don't want to do it again. And we say, I'm never making chicken parm again. And the next time we get an inkling to cook, we look at that chicken parm experience and say, well, that sucked. So this time it has to be perfect.

And then the cycle repeats itself again. So every time I tell that story about the chicken parm, almost everyone I know is just like, oh, I do that too. And they do that with cooking and also with a lot of other things in life. So this is why a lot of people in their workplaces will get in trouble because they're coming up with this really lofty, perfect solution that's also for a lot of different things. But it's really complex. And what happens is when we're in that swirling like, oh, I'm going to find the perfect solution. It's just like, don't be mean, don't be mean, don't be mean. Ah, it feels really good. And then once that creative process ends, we have to move into the doing phase. And that one doesn't feel as good.

And two, because of that drop in dopamine levels, our executive function is now shot. So figuring out the logistics of how to do it and figuring out what the first step is and what permissions we need to get. And all of these super complex things is a lot harder to do. And so a lot of us tend to jump back in to the optimization phase again. And so it becomes this trap and we're constantly optimizing and we're very rarely coming through with the results.

And occasionally at the last minute, adrenaline will kick in like it always does and we get a big boost and we have time to do something. Right. It might not be the lofty solution that we came up with before, but we are able to do something. But then we look at that something and we're like, ugh, this is nowhere near as good as the thing that I came up with. Or sometimes it is the solution that we came up with. And it turns out it's no longer the optimal solution because the parameters are different or we encountered some roadblock that came up that changes things or other people don't consider it that way.

Where sometimes we present and we're like, isn't this great? And everyone's like, yeah, OK. And then they move on and we're just like seething because it's just like, dude, I came up with this like super great thing and you're not making a big deal out of it. So there are so many ways being stuck in the optimization trap can lead to negative results. It is actually extremely rare for it to generate the results that we wanted to. And that's where we run into a lot.

William Curb: I mean, it sounds so much like perfectionism and perfectionism absolutely feeds into it. But it's kind of this different like this is the process of perfectionism rather than just I'm a perfectionist.

Jaye Lin: Yeah. But I mean, I don't even like to use the term perfectionist. I don't think it's accurate for what a lot of us encounter, because perfectionism implies that there is a perfect solution. And perfectionism is something that can be measured. A perfect metalwork cube has the exact same measurements on each edge, each side, you know, it's perfectly smooth. There is a way to measure perfect. And with a lot of what we do, there is no way to measure perfect.

So we are optimizing, but my optimum is not the same as your optimum. And it's hard for everyone's optimal solution to match. And so we end up kind of nitpicking something that someone else might not even prefer. And that is the problem with optimization. It's not like perfectionism where it can be measured. I know that my a perfect cube is the same to me as it is to you. Optimization is even trickier because there are such differences.

William Curb: Yeah, because you can always just keep going. Like, yeah, there is like that end point with perfectionism end point. We know there's no perfect thing, but we can kind of be with optimization there isn't that visualized endpoint. It's like, oh, if we get there, well, then we'll go one step further.

Jaye Lin: Yeah.

William Curb: I know a lot of times when I have I'm trying to set realistic goals in the back of my head, it's like, but here's how I could do it better. And so I have these like secret goals I don't even write down and then I hit my goal. And I'm like, but I didn't do the secret goal.

Jaye Lin: I didn't land on the moon, even though I was shooting for the atmosphere, right? There are so many ways that we do that and the goalposts move. But also the opposite of that happens because of our executive dysfunction. Cognitive flexibility is an executive function.

And with ADHD, it's harder for us. So sometimes we will stick to the solution, even though everything is presenting to us that it isn't the optimal solution anymore.

We will continue down that path and really solidify to ourselves that like, no, no, this is right. This is the right way. No, this is right. And then we get to the end and we don't have the solution that we wanted. And the goalposts, it's like in a different football field now. And there is no way for us to feel happy about that.

William Curb: One of the things I was also thinking about while pre thinking about this conversation was this, I do think a lot of times we're pretty much optimizing for everything we do, but we often aren't thinking about what we're optimizing for. So the example I think about is like, if I want to go get lunch and I'm with someone else and we're both optimizing for different things, we're going to have a really bad time. So I'm like, I just want to have the fastest food possible. I just want to go in the next five minutes to have food in front of me.

But they want to have the most delicious food in front of them. We have very different goals, even though we're both like, the goal is getting the best lunch for me, the best lunch, the fastest lunch for them, the best lunch is whatever is tastiest. And then you could also have people that are like, oh, I want the cheapest or, you know, I want the one that's, you know, most familiar or something I've never had for. And so a lot of times when we're doing these optimization things, we're not thinking about what we're optimizing for. We're just optimizing for this like amorphous best.

Jaye Lin: This is very similar to, I think, what happens in a lot of workplaces and where I got in a lot of trouble before my diagnosis was that I was always optimizing solutions to solve for all these things. I would spend a lot of time on it. And for a lot of my bosses, their optimum was figure this out in as little time as possible so you can work on other things. And so I present to them this like optimized solution and they're just like, you spent four days working on this. This was a 10 minute task. I asked you to do this very simple thing and you spent all your time doing this other stuff.

You didn't do any of the other things I asked you to do. And it's because I'm just like, well, don't you want the optimal solution? And they're like, my optimum solution is for all these things to be done, not just this one thing. I did not need this like big lofty solution with all these bells and whistles. This wasn't what I asked of you. And so this is where I got in a lot of trouble before my diagnosis was that I got into the space where it would even make me kind of angry with them and cast all these negative feelings about our relationship, our working relationship, their own abilities, their judgment making.

Because I'm just like, why wouldn't you want this optimum solution? Why wouldn't you want to do this bigger fix? And this whole idea that there is one optimal solution is usually what gets in our way because for a lot of other people, the optimized solution might be different and it's important for us to align. So if in your situation, you asked your friend, what are you optimizing for right now? They could tell you and it's kind of like, well, we can find something that fits both.

Right. So if my boss is like, I want you to spend no more than half an hour on this, my optimum solution is how good can I get it in half an hour? And that way, everyone's expectations are met because that becomes the actual optimum solution with all the parameters considered instead of just one thing that we are aware of at the time.

William Curb: And I think it's also really important to look at while we're doing our own self planning because we often get in that stage of like, OK, I'm going to do all of these things. But if I go, OK, I'm going to step back, I'm going to try and optimize for things that I'm going to get done in this week. What are the things I'm going to actually do? What are the things that how can I optimize to making sure I follow through with this plan?

Jaye Lin: Totally. Optimization for finishing is my favorite way to optimize. Because before I felt like I was optimizing for the most creative solution or the thing that would wow people the most. And if I'm just like, what is the solution that will make it likely for me to complete this thing? That changes everything. Right. Like that shifts all of the other metrics around.

William Curb: You're like, oh, here's like a list of 10 things I want to be included in this. And then you go, oh, if I'm optimizing for finishing, I can't do the bottom seven things. And so these top three things are really the most important things that I need to get done. And, you know, maybe if there's time afterwards, I could think about like, would that add anything? I don't know at this point. I think that's the stuff we don't know before we get started and then gets added in once we start. And we're like, I went off on this path and I didn't know all the things I didn't know. And it's so, so infuriating when you're like, I did all this planning and it's worthless now because I didn't know this one thing.

Jaye Lin: Exactly. And that's why I actually don't recommend doing long optimization. Because then we kind of solidify ourselves in a plan that might not even take all of the parameters into consideration because we haven't started yet. We don't actually know what the roadblocks are or what these surprises are going to be. And so for myself, I usually say, I'm going to only use the optimization phase to psych myself up in order to get started. So usually I set a timer.

It depends on what it is, but no longer than like one or two hours. And when I get there, it's like, OK, now I have to get started. I don't have to be solid in the plan that I had before getting started. I can pivot. And then I schedule in times to reevaluate. So, hey, is this still the optimal solution? Now I can kind of reconfigure based on what I know now. And that way the solution ends up being something I'm really happy with at the end instead of something that I am disappointed with.

William Curb: Especially when we if we can make that good sense of where we want to end up because I know with like a lot of planning things, if I'm not planning with the end in mind, it's more likely that I'm going to make a plan that is impossible to follow through on.

Jaye Lin: Or possible to follow through on, but at a cost, I can follow through on this, but I won't be able to get good sleep for the next week. I can follow through on this, but then I won't have enough money to take a vacation this year. I can follow through on this, but then someone's going to be upset with me because I broke our plans. All of these things are important. How we feel at the end is so critical to getting started next time. It's that dopamine at the end when we finish something and say, oh, my gosh, it's done.

It's like dopamine explosion, right? But we can only do that if we feel good about it at the end. If we feel disappointed, if we invalidate our victory and say, oh, well, it could have been better if I spent more time on it. It could have been better if I, you know, something, something, something. Then we don't get that dopamine at the end and we don't want to do it again. And the next time there's just more resistance to getting started and completing things.

William Curb: Yeah. One of the interesting things I was thinking about too, as we were talking before this episode, we were talking about some podcast back-end stuff. And I was like, this is actually like me trying to optimize my process right now. But it's not something where this is like putting me in the hole for getting started because I've already started and I'm just like, oh, is there a better way to do this? I've been doing these things this way. Maybe I could try and change something up. Maybe I don't want to record on Zoom anymore. Maybe I want to find one of the other platforms that are more optimized for podcasting.

Jaye Lin: Yeah. And what that does is a really great thing too, because we often think that we need to come up with the best solution before we get started. But that doesn't allow for any of these little dopamine bursts along the way of how we can improve the system. Like every time you think about, oh, maybe there's another platform I can use. Maybe there's different editing software or whatever. That's like more dopamine that we're getting. That's more brainstorming, more creative process. So it's actually better for us to build that in into the process instead of doing it all in the beginning.

William Curb: As long as we kind of like keep that in mind so that we're like, you know, I'm going to be able to be getting ourselves involved in systems where I'm like, oh, I can't can move this. I'm not going to be so stuck in a system that I'm never going to be able to get out of it.

Jaye Lin: Yeah, absolutely. And it has to do with everything, everything across the board. I think this applies to and I've made it a point to start small every single time. So every time I start something, I start with a starter set. So, for example, when I started podcasting, I didn't look up the top of the line microphone to use and, you know, the headphones and all that stuff because I knew that that was going to make it harder for me to move forward because I was still at that point like an amateur podcaster. And so if I got the top of the line, everything and I still don't like what I put out, that's going to feel like a waste.

That's going to make me feel bad about myself. So first I started off with like a $30 mic and then afterwards I was just like, I'm going to improve my sound a little bit. But then I got like a $50 mic and actually that mic is still pretty good. I got to say like that $50 mic. Sometimes I prefer to even this like fancy Shure mic that understood gave me but having this whole like, well, now that I know what the pitfalls are, I have a better idea of the thing that I would get. Because oftentimes we do this thing where we optimize everything. We read all the wire cutter, you know, articles.

We look up all the reviews for stuff and we're like, this is the one that everyone says is the one to get. But it might not actually make sense for me, right? So like a Vitamix is the top of the line blender. But actually a hand blender works better for my sensibilities. And so getting a Vitamix probably wouldn't be useful to me versus the thing that is, which is a hand blender that's easier for me to clean.

William Curb: Yeah, 100 percent. It's so easy to like think you're optimizing when you're going down the wrong path. And I hate using the word path on things because it implies that there's like one direction when it's like, no, I'm just in the middle of a field and I'm like that direction or that direction, you know, and just taken off and it's not a path. It's like what's actually going to work for me in my life. And I won't know until I start. And so I mean, I do think, yeah, trying to optimize for getting started, optimize for getting into the process so that you don't. I mean, this is something so many people with ADHD complain about is that they find a new hobby, they invest heavily and then never touch it again.

Jaye Lin: Yeah, and I actually just did an episode on that on changing hobbies. And it does make sense for us to do that because of how good it feels when we first start thinking about doing that hobby. And for a lot of us, when we start on the hobby, it's like, oh, well, this didn't live up to the expectation. And it's because of the optimization, right? Like, oh, I'm going to start crocheting because I'm hyperactive and I need to fidget. So it will allow me to do something to fidget and have a product to put out. It'll be something I can do while I'm watching TV. It'll be something, you know, this is a really great thing.

This is going to change my life. And then I started, I'm just like, I'm so bored. I hate this and my crochet knots look really ugly. I hate it. But I had already looked up the best yarn to use and, you know, color safe stuff. And so I felt like I had to keep going because I put so much time and money into it and just like hated it the whole time and then hated doing it entirely. But what if I do like it again?

You know, it is really good for me. So a lot of stuff can happen like that. We're just like, well, this thing is going to change my life. And it's just like realistically, no one thing is really going to change our lives. A lot of it has to do with how we see ourselves is going to change our lives versus picking up embroidery or something like that. Right.

William Curb: And I also see this as a place that one of the places I'm like recognizing it for myself is like lying in bed, you know, being like, OK, I'm going to go to sleep, but I'm thinking about this other thing. And I'm like, oh, these are all the things I could do. And it feels very important and I'm feeling very like motivated in the moment. But I think the motivation is coming from the fact that I can't actually engage with that idea right now. It's the I have no reality check while I'm just in my own head.

Jaye Lin: Yeah. And it's funny. I was just talking to a client about this this week is that our plans that we make at night are usually these like lofty goals, including like, I'm going to finally do the thing that I've been putting off doing. And the reason why it feels good for us to do that is because one. Yeah, it's a not now. Right. We're now we're not now people. And at that point it's a not now. So it feels good. And it's like, oh, look at me. I'm going to do the thing.

I feel so good about myself. But that next morning when we look at the list, we still don't want to do it. This thing that we've been putting off, we want to put it off again, because now that it's a now, it's like, well, that thing that made us feel really good last night is still a not now. And so we don't actually move forward with the thing that we came up with the night before. So instead of saying like, well, the night before I need to decide what I need to do. I usually say, decide what you were going to do before you're going to do it because that's more realistic.

And if there is something that we've been putting off, it's really important for us to ask ourselves why we have been putting it off. What about it is something that makes us not want to spring forward with it and makes us really want to do it the night before. And usually it means that it is important or urgent, but maybe it feels too important, too urgent. And when things feel really important and the result needs to be great, that is when the worst kind of optimization comes through us, because it's usually a really hard fix, a super complex fix. It's going to take a lot of logistical kind of figuring out in order to succeed on it.

But we're like, yeah, that result sounds great. I really want the result. But when it comes time to do it, it's like, I feel uncomfortable. I don't really know how to move forward. It feels like too many moving parts. It's like, OK, at that point, we can say we were optimizing for the loftiest solution at that time. But with how I feel about it now, what is the optimum solution to completing it? And that'll be very different. And normally that's what we do when we get that big boost of dopamine in the last minute adrenaline boost, right?

Is we figure out what is optimum for completing right now. And so if we do that earlier and we say what is the optimum solution for completing it, we can get a clear idea of what we need to do in order to actually move forward. And for me, long term, that is applied to my life, where now I try not to do anything that's like a long term, long term goal. So I try not to get anything in my life that is not kind of like a week or two long sprint.

And I do everything in kind of like sprints because that's what works best for me, the adrenaline and like making progress and like being able to work on it works really well. Whereas if it's like this is something I can dedicate a half hour to every three days for the next year, I'm much less likely to follow through on it just because it feels like the goal is too far away and I'm not going to reach it.

And so I end up stalling and not going back to it. And so when we do this exercise kind of as proactively as possible, what is preventing me from moving forward? How can I optimize for actually completing it? It can sometimes change how we look at everything in our lives and how we kind of optimize for everything in our lives as well.

William Curb: One of the places I'm also thinking about with these lofty goals is that when I'm doing that kind of planning, planning in quotations, because it's not real planning at all, I am optimizing as if I don't have ADHD. Because I'm like, oh, I just won't do these things. I'll just stay motivated forever and I won't need to have these reminders or be like, I do need the reminders, but I'm not going to have any executive function issues.

It's just going to be this like train of thought going straight through. And I'm like, that's not I need to really make sure I understand that I have ADHD while I'm doing this, which feels silly to say. Because I'm like, of course I have ADHD. I have to keep that in mind with everything. But so often, that's not actually I'm thinking I can just do this and it's maybe not.

Jaye Lin: Yeah. And it's funny that we know ourselves really well in one way. And when it comes to optimization, you're right, we just throw everything we know about ourselves out the window is a really great example. I'm one of those people where I want to take one trip from the car. So like my arms will fall off before I will make two trips to get all my shopping bags. But sometimes I have like really big things. And so I was just like, Oh, well, the next time I go to my car, I'll bring something back in. Or the next time I go to my car, I'll bring something to my car. But there are too many things to bring to and from my car because I don't actually drive that much anymore.

I work from home. And so every time I'm not able to bring what I need back. And so my car becomes this like pile up of like basically storage for my apartment because there's no possible way I can bring everything back in. And so at that point, it's just like, what am I optimizing for here? Fewer trips to the car, right? But is it optimal to have everything that I need in my car and not in my apartment? And the answer to that is definitely not, right? And so it does make sense to even just have trips to the car or to the recycling bin or whatever for what I need it for instead of optimizing for just the least number of steps to and from my car.

William Curb: This is making me think like I have a bag I take with me and like I'll be putting the things I need or things I could foreseeably use on my whatever trip I'm taking. And then it gets just so heavy because it has so much stuff in it that I don't want to take my bag anymore.

And it's like,

Jaye Lin: Totally.

William Curb: I am optimizing for the wrong thing here. I should be optimizing for making sure that I don't take off my bag and leave it somewhere because I forgot that I put it down and it's just too heavy to keep on me all the time.

Jaye Lin: Yeah. And it's funny because this happens with packing too. And I was talking with someone, I think it might have been Jesse J. Anderson or something like that, but he was talking about how he packed like everything for this trip. Like he packed like so many things like five pairs of shoes or whatever. And I said, oh, for the first time I just packed exactly enough. I think it brought like one extra outfit just in case.

But I packed one pair of dressy shoes and one pair of walking around shoes and one outfit that I would need every time I took a shower. And everyone's like, how do you do it? And this whole idea of what if I need this thing? What if? What if? What if? What if I need to read something? What if I something? And I think that's also the beauty of technology and our current economy in the United States, which is what if I forgot something that I need? I can just get another one or ask someone to borrow one.

It's not the end of the world. If I forget deodorant, it's like, I'll run to the drugstore and get a trial size of deodorant there. It's gonna cost me like $1.50. It's gonna be fine. It's gonna be fine if I forget to do something. Or it's like, what if I got my clothes soaked and I need to do another change? It's like, well, I brought one more change of clothing, but honestly, I could probably wear something twice.

It's gonna be fine. And we don't often think about that where it's just like, oh, I have to anticipate every single possible scenario that comes up when I'm traveling. And it's like, it's probably not even the optimum solution. It's causing a lot of stress for me to be that prepared. And it would be better off for me to just say, well, if I need something, I can go get it, right?

William Curb: Man, that would not work with my kids. But again, we all have our own levels of optimization where we need to go. It's like, yeah, traveling alone versus traveling with kids. Yeah, that's a different thing that you need to focus on.

Jaye Lin: And again, this applies to everything. So a lot of people I talk to, they're like, oh, you started a podcast and you're like doing all this podcast stuff. You like did all these projects. How do you do it? And I'm like, what's getting your way from starting a podcast? And they're just like, oh, well, I don't know if I want it to be like a video series or whatever. I was just like, yeah, I mean, what's preventing you from starting it though? Cause you can always change it to whatever you want.

I mean, case in point, my podcast started off as one with guests. And by the second one, I realized it took a lot of executive function to schedule guests and get everything to them ahead of time and then record it and figure out like whether or not they were going to have input that I wanted to use in the podcast or if they had a lot of problematic views. It was like hard for me to know that. And it took so much work that I decided to just like follow your lead and do solo podcasting after the second episode. And so I said, it's possible to pivot.

It's always possible to pivot. And they're just like, well, you know, I don't want to do any Instagram reels because it's just going to take me so much time and effort to like do my hair and makeup. And so I tell them, actually, let me point to never do my hair or makeup before I do any sort of podcast or reel or anything like that. Every time someone has seen me in a public facing thing with you, with the exception of like one or two days at the conference when I the first conference that I went to when I was talking to someone, they're like, we're going to do or make up. I was like, OK, I'll do it too.

That sounds really fun. That was the only day that I wore makeup at that conference. Right. And it's one of those things where it's important for me to show up kind of exactly how I roll out of bed in the morning. And it's because of this optimization trap where there is no perfect enough. And this is what I tell someone.

If I'm worried about how I look, there is no amount of fixing up that will make me free from criticism. Even if I make myself perfect, I face tune, I do my hair, I do my makeup. I spend a lot of money on it. I work out seven days a week. I eat only salads or whatever. Someone will still think that I am not pretty enough or I look weird or I am not thin enough. I'm too thin at all of these things.

William Curb: And you'll have the people that are being like, you're not presenting a realistic image of what we can do.

Jaye Lin: Exactly. Exactly. So when I show up exactly how I am, when I roll out of bed, what my clients see when they come into meetings with me, what my friends see when I go and meet them in my sweatpants. That is the most authentic way for me to present myself. And if someone has a problem with it, well, they're just kind of a mean bully. And I don't have to spend a lot of time and like, scrutiny trying to do something that is impossible to do.

William Curb: It's so hard to show up on the Internet and not have some sort of comment, especially, you know, as a woman of color. I don't have nearly as many issues. I know I get like occasionally I get something and I'm like, oh, that wasn't nice, but I don't care because I know I get it way less than most people. It feels so weird to be like, yeah, when I get something like, oh, weird. It's also because I don't pay that much attention. Like people are like, oh, you should do other than like I like I read every comment. I'm like, I would if I remembered to. But ADHD saves me from a lot of mental trauma so.

Jaye Lin: Yeah, people can be so mean. I just got my first mean comment on YouTube on tips from an ADHD coach. Someone had said that like this is not a good video format for people with ADHD. The voice is really monotone. The voice and visuals are really monotone. And it's impossible for me to keep interested or something like that. And I was just like, OK, first of all, it was a man commenting on how this podcast for women is not good enough, which is problematic in its own way. But also when I had brought this up to my producers in one of the meetings, one of my producers was just like, yeah, did you see all the replies to that comment? I was like, I did.

And she's just like, yeah, every like all these women start jumping in saying, like, actually, I prefer this. This is a really like calm, safe way to exploit these like really kind of tough subjects. I really like this and I can do it while driving and doing stuff and cleaning and all that. And so this is another example of how optimum is different for everybody. Right. So that one person that made that comment, their optimum is kind of like more stunning visuals, not just me talking to the camera and telling them about my experience in my real voice.

It probably has to do with like more pizzazz. But that is just kind of not who I am and not what I would want. And I think it's really important that there is a variety of options for a lot of people. And I'm totally OK with my format not being ideal for this person. There are a lot of podcast formats that aren't ideal for me. I almost never listen to any interview podcast because it's so easy for my attention to drift that I don't even know how long I've been zoning out.

And so that's why I listen to your podcast almost exclusively as an ADHD podcast before because it was so easy to follow what you were doing. And I told you before, like I basically like copied your format when I started doing my podcast without guests, because it was so effective for me that that's what I wanted to put out for other people. And it's not that interview podcast or what's out there is bad.

William Curb: I mean, we're doing one now so

Jaye Lin: We're doing one right now. Right. It's not that I think that sucks. It's just it doesn't work for me as well. And there's nothing wrong with that. And I would never make a mean comment to anyone about it. It's just it's not my ideal format. But I really appreciate that it's out there for everyone else.

William Curb: Yeah, I mean, it's amazing how so many people feel entitled to everything on the internet. When it's like, you're not the only person on the internet. And there's enough content that everyone can have. Like whenever I hear someone like this, starting a new ADHD podcast, I'm like, that's awesome. Tell me what it is. I'm going to go listen. I want to see what you do because I think we can just keep growing that pie of making it so that everyone has that accessible option to listen to what works best for them.

Jaye Lin: Totally. And it's going to be different, you know, like sometimes people don't like banter and sometimes people do. It's just the more variety and the more diversity in what is happening in the podcasting market and all media basically, the better. And just because someone isn't getting, you know, a huge following and a ton of listens doesn't mean that what they're doing is wrong or bad in any way. It's just for a different set of people or maybe they don't have the visibility yet. And it's really hard to measure what we are doing based on follower account or listener accounts and stuff like that. And I think using those kind of like external metrics always leads to problems for me, which is why I usually determine my own metrics for things.

And it's just like, yeah, what am I trying to do with this? What counts as success? And as long as I'm hitting those measures of success, which is, you know, I put a podcast out, the metric that I was using was, is this content that would have benefited me prior to 2019 when I got my diagnosis? Right. What this content have helped me back then. And if the answer is yes, it doesn't really matter how many listens I get, how many likes, how many follows, it's me fulfilling the purpose that I came out to do. So it's really important for me to do that because we can't control anything on social media really.

And when we try to, that's usually when things start to go awry and it starts to get really frustrating and we get away from what we set out to do in the first place. So I think it's really important for us to have that kind of North Star to look at.

William Curb: Yeah. The optimization of going off in the wrong direction because some metrics and you're like, just making you think of like, you know, very successful like YouTubers or someone they're like, I did this thing, you know, and it made me popular. I hate doing it. And I can't stop doing it because I know I'm going to lose my audience if I do, but I don't want to keep doing this. And I don't know how to. I'm like, that sucks. That's the worst. Like if you, I understand you need to make a living, but don't do that up. Like that's soul crushing.

Jaye Lin: Yeah. And especially because in the ADHD space, relatable content gets the most interest. And usually the way that I'll describe it is like what behavior to other people feels problematic, but to us is a challenge that gets the most likes, but it also doesn't provide anything to help with that. It's just part of the validating part of you are not trying to do this thing that everyone is thinking that you're intending and doing, which is important in its own way. But also, if we are all focused on getting likes and followers that way, where is the helpful information?

And that's the reason why, even though people like, yeah, if you want to get more followers, if you want to get more likes and more interest and, you know, sponsorships and stuff like that, you have to do that content instead of what you're doing, which is just insight and trying to help people out with what's going on, explaining why things are happening and what we can do about it. And it's just like, well, if that's the content that I'm making, I don't think I'd be excited to make it.

So it's okay for me to not get those likes, those followers, all of those things if I'm making the content that I set out to do. So again, that's why the North Star is important because it can be really easy to fall into a trap of trying to get more of something that isn't fulfilling us.

William Curb: I mean, I think this is like the great pivot back to the optimization that we're talking about, because yeah, if you know where you want to go, you can optimize towards getting there rather than what seems important. Because often we don't, we can have trouble knowing exactly what we want. And so we're kind of like, do this amorphous, like I'm going to go this way and kind of that can lead us in ways we don't want to go. Or having this thing where I've found that, like, we can define one thing as the problem, but that's not really the problem.

That's just a symptom of the problem. And when we're really trying to solve for that, I'm like, well, that's not going to be helpful. Like if I am trying to exercise more and I'm like, well, it's just about me getting out of the house more. It's like, well, that's probably not actually the issue. The issue is that I'm not getting enough sleep. And so when I'm like, okay, well, if that's actually the problem, I can focus on fixing that instead, you know, having that defined goal of like, well, it's not that I actually want to exercise more, I just want to feel like I feel good in my body. Oh, that's a much better. That's I can optimize for that instead.

Jaye Lin: Yeah. And it's funny because sometimes we think the solution to get to that optimum goal is the right solution. And we need to stop ourselves and say, like, is this actually happening? So if, for example, it was I want to feel better in my body, and you are going out there doing like really intense hit fitness and stuff like that. And then you feel yourself worn down or all your muscles are sore all the time, you can't do any of the things that you love, that is not you feeling better in your body, right? So it's like, Oh, this thing that I thought was going to lead to this goal is actually not leading to this goal.

What can I do that actually does? And that's happening with me right now, where my goal was to be able to help a lot of people with ADHD and utilize my time and energy to maximize how many people I can help with my ADHD. And that's the reason why I love my job at Google, even though I was doing really well there that was at a career high, basically, when I left Google. And I said, I really want to do this thing that helps people. And so I went into coaching full time. But coaching is I think it's always been kind of like a volatile industry.

And especially now that there are so many coaches out there, it actually is not easy to be financially stable in this industry. And I found myself kind of gravitating toward only paying jobs so that I could remain kind of like financially stable. And I wasn't actually kind of following my North Star of trying to maximize how much I could help other people because I was so fixated on making money to live off of, right? And so right now, I am job hunting in the next few months to get a full time job and do my ADHD coaching and the podcasting in my free time.

And that's because it'll allow me to help people without having to put a financial gain in what I'm doing. So I won't have to like, I won't have to turn down all these speaking gigs because they're volunteer, even though it is a really great audience, because I need to maximize my time for paid speaking gigs, you know, I will be able to do more ADHD mentorship, which is I think a really critical piece that's missing from the ADHD community. Do you know the differences between like coaching and mentoring and all that stuff?

William Curb: Tell me more.

Jaye Lin: Okay. So if someone is, let's say, an executive, like a director or something like that, they'll usually get a kind of leadership or executive coach, right? And that coach will actually coach them. So ask them questions, reflect things back to them, notice changes in their body language and their tone, but they don't share from their own experience. They don't share wisdom of what they've learned, what they would do in that situation, because that's normally something that's done by a mentor. And so executives will have multiple people fulfilling these very separate roles for them.

One person will tell them, you know, the mentors will share their own experiences and their insight so that this executive is aware of the possibilities of avenues that they can take. And then the coach will allow them to kind of like safely explore what they want to do and their intentions and how they're going to do it. And then they will have an advocate who is someone who will speak up for them and be on their side when it comes to advancing their career. So these are different people, and they're all kind of like supporting this executive together.

And it creates this perfect ecosystem of growth. With ADHD, it's really hard to find someone who has done all the work and made all these improvements to give kind of like hope and insight to what is possible, because usually the people who have done all that work become coaches, right? And so then we need to do coaching. But I've talked about this with a lot of my colleagues. A lot of clients come in and they only know things one way because no one has told them that it's possible to do things a different way. So what ends up happening is we end up being kind of like a coach slash mentor, and we share our own experiences and we talk things through. And that is a problem because it kind of shifts what clients come up with during the session to kind of like please us and be like, oh, do you think this is a good thing for me to do?

Instead of having the coach be completely impartial and it's a very separate relationship. And at first I was just like, yeah, we need more mentors considering how much work I've done on myself and with my family, with communications, repaired all of my fractured relationships. People have often asked me questions more along the lines of mentorship, and I think it would be helpful to have more mentors in this space.

But also I don't think it's fair for me to charge them a coaching fee for me to talk about my own experiences and share my own experiences with them. And mentors are usually either not paid or much lower paid because it's not as cognitively taxing to do the mentorship bit. And so working a full-time job will allow me to do more of that because my financial stability is completely detached from the passion of helping people with ADHD. So going back to what I brought this up for, sometimes when we think that, oh, this is the way for me to get to this optimal of me helping people with ADHD, it actually isn't because of unforeseen circumstances.

And a lot of times people will optimize for this perfect solution, but it will make them worn out. And then I'm going to do all these things for my kids. I'm going to do everything for my kids, and then I feel worn out, and then I yell at them. And it's just like, well, what was the ultimate goal here? And if you were optimizing for giving your children a wonderful childhood, then doing everything for them so that you're stretched then and you yell at them is not the optimal solution.

William Curb: Yeah. I mean, that last example is like something I've definitely thought of. If you were having, you're trying to build these childhood memories and you're just so stressed out and I'm going to make this perfect. And if you're not on board, then I'm losing it. That's not the way to be here. Fortunately, not something I have a huge problem with, but it is like, there's time for I'm just like, okay, I need to step back and take a breath and be like, okay, let's we're not doing what I envisioned. Let's do something else. I'm optimizing for my children loving me because that's the important part.

Jaye Lin: Yeah. And this happens all the time. I use this example a lot for holiday dinners. There are a lot of moms I know. And actually, I used to do this to you, even though I'm not a mom, where I'd be like, oh, I'm going to throw this holiday dinner. It's going to be like really extravagant. I'm going to make all these really complex recipes. Everyone's going to be really impressed with all of this like fancy food that they're eating. And then it is so much work and so much stress that we end up like melting down and yelling at people or resenting people because we're doing all the work even though we volunteered to do all the work and we are not letting other people help us. And just like, I'm doing everything and they're not doing anything.

And then it creates this kind of like tense dynamic. We're just like, what were you trying to do here? Why did you volunteer to have everyone come over for the holiday dinner? It's like, well, I want to show my friends and family how much I love them through food. It's like, okay, is this the best way to do it? Right? Like, are you following through on that right now? Doing this? And most of the time it's just like making something a little more simple that doesn't take so much of our bandwidth, doesn't take so much planning, but still tastes good. And it allows everyone to sit around the table and really enjoy the food. That is probably going to be the best solution.

If not, you know, everyone brings something and you make a really, you know, crowd pleasing favorite dish that doesn't take up too much bandwidth. That is probably going to be the ultimate best solution. But we don't often think that way because it's just like, oh, well, everyone will appreciate and love me if I'm able to throw this extravagant holiday meal. But it's not like, well, to do that, I might yell at everyone. I will be in a bad mood. I won't have any time to talk to any of my friends and family because I'm in the kitchen the entire time and I need to focus. And I always bring that up every time. It's like, are you succeeding on the true reason why you're doing this? Not are you succeeding at making an extravagant dinner?

William Curb: One thing that's also popping into my head too is we are talking about ADHD here. This is one way that people do this. But the other way is the impulsive side of things where they just skip the optimization trap entirely and just do. The way I'm going to optimize doing is I'm just going to not plan at all. I'm just going to start. And I find that's often a really bad choice too.

Jaye Lin: I don't even know if that's not optimizing because I find that when people just start, they do have an end goal that they have optimized. They do have an end product, right? Even if they haven't figured out any of the steps on how to get there, they're just like, oh, I'm going to start embroidering. I'm going to be so good at embroidering. I'm just going to start. I'm going to make dinner. I'm just going to start throwing things into a pan. But usually, they will have an end goal where everyone is really impressed with the food that I'm eating or that I'm cooking or I'm going to be really good at soccer even though I haven't looked anything up. And so they're still optimizing for the perfect solution even if they haven't figured out any of the steps in between. That's what I find.

William Curb: I was just thinking, yeah, we just have this very impulsive I'm starting now. And a lot of times, they're not spending enough time. It's a terrible example, but it is. I'm going to go do this half marathon. And the one time I did a half marathon, I signed up a week before it started. So I trained on Tuesday and Thursday and then ran it on Saturday. I mean, it turned out, but I'm like, that could have been very bad. That's a way to get injured.

Jaye Lin: I mean, it is a way to get injured, but you notice that what you said was, I'm going to do a half marathon. So that was your end goal. And again, it's just like, wow, that's pretty optimized for someone who doesn't run long distances on a regular basis. That is just like, oh, I'm going to be able to do this half marathon. And it's just like, well, I'm just going to do it. It's still kind of the trap. It did work out for you because you were able to pull it off and you didn't seize up and not be able to walk, which I have seen before.

The restaurant that I owned was on a marathon path and a woman had asked to use our restroom and then was collapsed onto the floor and we couldn't open the door because her muscles had completely just collapsed and she couldn't crawl her way to the handle. So I have seen the terrible things that can happen without planning for things like this. But even still, I would still consider that to be the optimization trap.

William Curb: They're optimizing for just getting started at any cost, even costs they're not considering. But yeah, I think that is just a something to be aware of when you're thinking about this issue is that like, yeah, just trying to just skip the whole step is not the answer either. You talked earlier about setting a timer for like, okay, I'm going to be in the stage for 30 minutes or however long I think I might need to figure out, you know, I'm going to read five articles or whatever and then be like, and I think that's a good place to also be like, I'm going to set 30 minutes, maybe reassess if I need to do more time. But if I don't, I can make the plan and get started.

Jaye Lin: This works really well if there are already constraints in our day. I always say I'm never more productive than I am when I only have like three or four half hour breaks in the day. And my whole day is packed and I need to get all this stuff done. I'm like the most productive during that time, even though I'm only working on something for two hours total, I'm getting so much done during that time because like the adrenaline just hits and I have to start right away and keep going and all this.

I'm just so focused on it that we can kind of make these milestones a little more solid. Because what tends to happen is just like, oh, well, I'm going to give myself an hour out of this five hour like space in my day in order to do this, I'm going to give myself an hour. But like we know, we know that we really have five hours. And so we don't start until the last hour. And then the first four hours, we're just kind of puttering around like gearing up to start, well, you know, I'm going to think about it, but then I'm going to distract myself.

And that's because the dopamine's low, the adrenaline's low, we're kind of like in an under stimulated state. And so what I like to say is, if I want to spend an hour on it, especially if this is something that affects someone else, I will let them know that like, I'm going to work on this, I will send you my suggestions in an hour. And then it creates kind of a deadline for me to shoot for. And so then I won't delay for four hours, I will immediately start working on that. And also be really deliberate about where that time is going, like what I'm able to do during that time. So I used to kind of optimize everything by saying, like, oh, well, you know, I need to filter water.

And before I do my dishes, because I need to run my hot water, and then I'll water my plants, and then I'll do this thing. But it's like an hour and a half long process from beginning to end. And I'm usually just like, I don't want to start doing this thing, because it's going to take an hour and a half. But if I don't do that, we're just like, here's 15 minutes of sprint, load my dishwasher, run the dishwasher, run the water, you know, like all of these things, I'm much more likely to get started because it doesn't feel like such a commitment.

William Curb: Anything you wanted to leave the audience with?

Jaye Lin: Being aware of the optimization trap and figuring out like what is ultimately most important to us is going to be so important, and not placing any sort of value on ourselves for doing optimum solutions and congratulating ourselves when we complete things optimal or not is always really helpful.

William Curb: Awesome. And if people want to find out more about what you do, where should they go?

Jaye Lin: Yeah. So my website is jayelin.com. You can find my self-produced podcast. It's called Now Presenting ADHD. The podcast I have through understood.org is called Tips from an ADHD Coach. You can find it by looking up misunderstood, M-I-S-S, understood, the ADHD in women's channel, anywhere you get your podcasts or on YouTube for both of them.

William Curb: Well, I'm going to encourage everyone to check out this podcast. I've loved listening to the misunderstood series, and I think people, after having heard this conversation, will also want to hear it because it's clear that you have a lot to offer. So thank you so much for coming on the show.

Jaye Lin: I mean, it's really interesting because it is a channel for women, but we get a lot of really positive comments from men who have gotten a lot from that channel as well. So I think it's just good for everybody, just like all diversity things. So thanks for having me on the show. Love being here.

William Curb: Absolutely. Awesome.

William Curb: Thanks again to Jay for coming on the show and thank you for sticking with us all the way to the end. Be sure to check out Jay's podcast, Tips from an ADHD Coach on the Misunderstood ADHD Woman channel from understood.org. Before you go though, let's do a quick rundown of today's top tips.

1. Optimize for completion, not for perfection. Focus on what will get the task done, not the flashiest or most complex version of it.

2. Try setting a timer for the planning phase. If you are having trouble with optimization, try giving yourself a set amount of time, maybe an hour so you don't get stuck endlessly researching or brainstorming.

3. Be sure to schedule regular re-evaluations of your planning, where you don't want to get stuck with an outdated plan that we're not really using. Make time by putting it in your calendar to reassess whether your current path is still the one you want to be on. Alright, that's it. Thanks for listening. I'd love to hear what you thought of this episode. Feel free to connect with me over at hackingyouradhd.com.

If you'd like links or to read this episode's transcript, you can go to the show notes page at hackingyouradhd.com. If you'd like even more Hacking Your ADHD, be sure to sign up for my newsletter, Any and All Distractions, which comes out every other week. In it, I give out my best distraction of the week, be it what I'm reading, what I'm playing, or what I'm watching.

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You can easily find that at hackingyouradhd.com. We're going with a pay what you want model, meaning that all levels of Patreon will receive all the same stuff. You can pay $0 or $2 or $10, and it's all the same. The only real difference coming from the roles that are assigned on the Hacking Your ADHD Discord, which reminds me that I also want to announce that we're now on Discord, which you can get access through from the Patreon, which again is pay what you want. So if you want to come check out the Discord or the Patreon, just go to hackingyouradhd.com slash Patreon. And don't forget to go and subscribe to our YouTube channel, which you can find at youtube.com slash at hackingyouradhd. And if you want another way to support the show, the best way to do so is to tell someone to about the show, especially if you think a particular episode would resonate with them. And I'm sure this one right above would definitely fit the case. Just click the share button on your podcast player and send it over to them.

And now for your moment of dad. I was just thinking, you know, the rotation of the earth. It really makes my day.

This Episode's Top Tips

1. Optimize for completion, not perfection. Focus on what will get the task done, not the flashiest or most complex version of it.

2. Try setting a timer for the planning phase. If you are having trouble with optimization, try giving yourself a set amount of time, maybe an hour, so you don’t get stuck endlessly researching or brainstorming.

3. Be sure to schedule regular reevaluations of your planning. We don’t want to get stuck with an outdated plan that we’re not really using. Make time by putting it in your calendar to reassess whether your current path is still the one you want to be on.