Coaching for your Brain with Dr. Norrine Russell
Episode Transcript
William Curb: Could you tell me a little bit about, your coaching practice?
Dr. Norrine Russell: Absolutely. So I have been doing coaching with kids for 12 years and with kids with ADHD for about nine years. And. First of all, I have to say. I absolutely love it. I think ADHD coaching for kids is often the missing piece of their treatment.
And so I love it. I love it in part because I think education is so important and I love it because I think that oftentimes our kids who have ADHD are not a great fit. For the school system, as it's currently designed, and as parents of kids with ADHD, we spend a lot of time looking for the right school, looking for the magic answer and the 504 plan or the IEP plan.
And sometimes a lot more complicated than that. And so at my practice, we work with kids across the country, across the United States who have primarily complex ADHD. They have ADHD plus something else, a learning disability, a mood disorder, autism, and we teach them how to be successful with their ADHD brain.
William Curb: Awesome. Yeah. It's so often that ADHD has friends, just so many co-morbidities that go on.
what really would people expect to get out of coaching? Because while you, focus on kids, my show has a lot of different age groups that listen in. And I think in coaching for everyone, it's a great opportunity, but I mean, specifically, what would kids get out of coaching and what do people, in general, find they get out of coaching?
Dr. Norrine Russell: Yeah, I think that's such an important question. And I think it's so important to understand what is the role that coaching can play. Right? And so coaching is designed to teach people how to build the skills and strategies they need in order to achieve their goals. Right. And so all coaching, whether it's business, coaching, fitness, coaching, financial coaching, ADHD coaching, starts with - where do you want to be? Where do you want to get to? And what's getting in the way? And then what coaching tries to do is help that person develop the skills and strategies. They need to kick those obstacles out of the way. And so whether it's an adult with ADHD who has an ADHD coach, because they're struggling with meeting deadlines at work, or they've recently been promoted and they have additional responsibilities that require an enormous amount of time management.
For us, what we see with the kids that we work with is generally they just have kind of delayed development with some of these executive functioning skills. And so their typical peers who, don't have any learning differences or neurological differences are able to meet the demands in second grade and fifth grade and seventh grade and ninth grade of how many papers are there to organize, how many quizzes do I have this week? What's my stress level. That's an important part of it. And so all coaches and all ADHD coaches really work on teaching people. Okay. How do you achieve your goals? I mean, that's really the fundamental process of coaching. How do you achieve your goals?
What can we do so you can get where you want to go.
William Curb: Yeah, and I think a huge piece here too, is often with ADHD. We go, we know what to do. We just can't do it. But that often just skips the part where we just go. I think I know what I need to do, which often it is. I just need to try harder. I need to not be lazy. And so often that's not the answer.
I just wrote a big thing on how laziness isn't kind of real. It's just - sure, you can act lazy sometimes, but that's not, what's actually the underlying thing that's going on.
Dr. Norrine Russell: Absolutely not. And you know, that is a word I hear frequently from parents. You know, he's a good kid, but he's kind of lazy, you know, she tries hard, but then sometimes she gets kind of lazy and, and honestly, I think.
We don't refer to anything else as being lazy. When I hear a parent, describe a kid as lazy, regardless of whether or not they've been officially diagnosed. My mind goes to the question. Is this a kid with ADHD because nothing else really looks lazy except ADHD, except it's not lazy at all. It's a difference in how the neurology is wired. It's a difference in how the different parts of the brain communicate between the motivation center and the frontal lobe. It's a difference in being able to put into practice what you know, and that piece of what you've just said is - people with ADHD, they know what to do. They can't quite pull the pieces together sometimes to do what they know.
And so, we'll have parents come to us who say, well, can you talk to him about the importance of writing things down? And I'll say a thing is they know the importance of that. Well, we have to figure out is how do we motivate it? To make those deadlines so he doesn't, miss deadline could be writing things down, could be using a reminder system, could be signing up for an alarm phone call three days ahead of the common app deadline.
Doesn't really matter. We need to meta it up a level. What's the ultimate goal. Right? And then figure it out what can this person with an ADHD brain do to help them meet that deadline or achieve that objective, right? Because it's not really about understanding you need to write it down. It's never about understanding what you need to do with the ADHD brain. It's understanding how to get yourself to do what you want to do.
William Curb: Yeah. Cause it's not about not wanting to do it. And sure. That can be the case sometimes. I have two children, one that is diagnosed with ADHD and one that when he gets old enough, I will not be surprised. And they want to please us and be good kids, but that's not where they're at all the time, because, as a parent, that's very important to remind myself, they're not trying to willfully do what they're doing.
They're not trying to not listen and even with. My own ADHD and knowing I sometimes don't listen when I want to be listening and I'll be driving in my car with my wife and then suddenly realized, oh no, she's been talking for the last five minutes. I have not picked up any of that. And that's not me trying to do that.
Dr. Norrine Russell: Yep, absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, in the circles that are helping kids with ADHD, I love this phrase, your kid, isn't giving you a hard time. Your kid is having a hard time, you know, and that's what I see with my own too.
And what we see in the practice. Your kid is having a hard time. They're having a hard time focusing. They're having a hard time controlling impulses. They're having a hard time with emotional regulation. They're not doing anything to you and they don't want to be doing it, and that's true for people across the lifespan.
My husband has ADHD. He does all kinds of ADHD things. They annoy me and I'm sure I have many, many non ADHD things that annoy him as well. Um, but you know, he is not doing that deliberately to annoy me or be disrespectful of our relationship and our kids aren't either.
William Curb: Yeah. So what are some of the things that you most often see kids struggling with?
Dr. Norrine Russell: So, in the earlier grades, we see a lot of trouble with impulsivity and meeting the expectations of sitting still, finishing work on time, not talking to friends and neighbors in class, and then that kind of leads into in the later elementary years or in middle school with a high level of stress, because they're starting to balance multiple classes, definitely multiple teachers by the time they get to middle school.
And so that kind of disorganization and the brain not automatically regulating attention leads to a lot of stress because then, of course, puberty is kicking in at the same time, which is not helpful. We really shouldn't have taken those things out of sequence. Don't do middle school when you're in puberty.
Then in middle school, we see a lot of stress from missing assignments from students who don't catch all the verbal cues in class. They're not encoding information correctly, either from the board or from the smartboard, or from the teacher. And they get surprised by quizzes and tests. We also sometimes see kids who struggle in working with teams, right, in collaboration with others, either because they're impulsive or their processing speed is fast or slow. and then by the time we get to high school, this to me is when we start to see kids who sometimes get checked out, if they really haven't had effective treatment of their ADHD and they start to feel like, you know what, I can't hack my brain. I don't know how to work my brain. And so school's done and it doesn't matter.
And why do I need to know this anyway? And. That part is sad to me. Right. Because you have a great brain. And so, we all have to learn how to work our brains.
William Curb: Yeah. This is a point I've hammered home on my show so many times it doesn't matter what the right way to do things is it's the way that your brain does it, you have to work with your brain. It doesn't matter how much you don't want that to be true. That's just how it has to be.
Dr. Norrine Russell: Yes. Yes. and when we, as adults give ourselves permission to work that way, then we can also give our kids permission to work that way. I, for years and years and years, would buy filing cabinets, you know what? I hate vertical filing. I am a piler. I will pile criss-cross on my desk until the stack is three inches tall because that's what works for me. Do I know where the paper is? Yeah, I know where the paper is. For many years though, I thought that was the wrong way, you know, to have it out and accessible.
And I always have the largest desk you can possibly buy whether it's my home office or my work office because I need to see visually all the different projects I'm working on. It looks messy. I judged myself. Oh, you should put all that stuff away. You should get a filing cabinet. You know what? This is what works for me.
And I think that's such an important message for our kids, too. What works for you? You don't have to do it. And in all likelihood, the regular conventional way of doing it, isn't going to work for you. But as long as we get the ultimate goal achieved, nobody cares. Really. Nobody cares. We talk with hundreds of teachers every year and we say, Hey, can we teach the student a different way of using their planner?
Can we teach the students a different way of taking notes? And the teachers are like, whatever works.
William Curb: Yeah. I mean, and I think that's a great point too, is how, how important the teacher is in the situation too, I remember last year my daughter started kindergarten and she had an amazing teacher that just had fidgets in the classroom and there were wiggle seats available.
And this year she's getting used to a new teacher that doesn't have some of those things available. And it's, too early to judge if which one is going to be a better experience for her, but it is definitely being like, oh, you're going to have a different experience just because of what the teachers expect of you.
Dr. Norrine Russell: Absolutely. Absolutely. And this is, I think, whereas parents, we need to develop some really exceptional advocacy skills because, in as much as there is less stigma to ADHD, I do believe that the vast majority of teachers receive training that says, this is a behavioral problem. And the only tool you have is behavioral.
And honestly, that's not going to work all the time at all. And that child needs any evaluation and they need evidence-based interventions that will work for them. And they certainly don't need a teacher saying focus. You have to try harder because that's not the.
William Curb: Yeah. So, what are some of the ways that parents can work better at getting that, advocacy piece in?
Dr. Norrine Russell: I do think that it starts with an attitude of we're in this together, and it starts with an attitude of empathy for teachers and the education system. Teachers get very little training on ADHD and teachers who have personal experiences or who have had a really, amazing experience watching a kid with ADHD thrive under their education, I think can be great at it.
But many, many teachers out there are under the impression that it's really a question of motivation and effort. And so I think the first thing is connecting with the teacher, right? If it's an experienced teacher, you've probably had hundreds of ADHD students. I get that. And you probably know a lot about ADHD.
I'd like to just sit and talk with you about Michael's ADHD and what his struggles have been and where he thrives because school's really important to us and his success in your class is really important to us. We want him to learn. And so if you've got 10 minutes where I can kind of fill you in on how his ADHD works. I think that would be really helpful for everyone.
If it's a newer teacher, I think it's fine to acknowledge you may or may not have had a lot of students with ADHD and you may not know a lot about this and that's okay. for my student, for my son or daughter, this is what you're likely to see.
This is what we're doing about it on the home end. This is what we're doing about it when it comes to treatment, and this is what will be most effective. As you get to middle school. I also think it's very important to reach out to those individual teachers because even though a 5 0 4 or IEP, Follows the child from elementary to middle school.
Sometimes that paperwork isn't always in the hands of the teacher right away, or they've got 30 kids in a class and 12 of them have got a 5 0 4 or an IEP. And so I really encourage middle school parents to make sure that individual teachers of the various classes know, Hey, you know, Mason has this 5 0 4, this is really the essential component of this. You'll know when he's stressed out and struggling when you see this behavior, we're all in on the home front, let us know what you need. And then when it gets to high school, working with your student to begin to self-advocate, it's not totally on them yet.
They're not adults yet. And their brains are sometimes a little less mature than their peers, but beginning to work with them so that they can have some preliminary conversations with their teachers, but it really takes an enormous amount of effort and an enormous amount of communication.
William Curb: And I think, that piece of like, this is how my child's ADHD works have all of our ADHD is a little bit different. Still surprises me sometimes when I'm like, oh, you don't have a problem with that, or, oh, you do have a problem with that. I mean, I have very little problem getting to places on time just because of way too high levels of anxiety about being late. But most people with ADHD, that's not their issue. It's and they do have the problem with, being on time. So it's always like, okay. What's what is precisely what needs to happen.
Dr. Norrine Russell: Right. Right. And in our practice, we use, a model of executive functioning that maps out 11 different executive functioning skills that can be impacted by lots and lots of different kinds of neurodevelopmental disorders, including ADHD.
And we start with helping the student figure out what are your strengths? So for you, it could be time management, right? And then where are the areas that are problematic for you. It might not be a strength, but it might not be a problem, but where are the areas that are really holding you back from being able to participate in varsity basketball and take two AP classes, right?
And so just knowing your brain and figuring out, Hey, I'm actually good at this. And then this part I really have to work on. And for me, I'm great at task initiation. But, Lord have mercy on you if you're waiting on me to finish a project because that is not my strength.
William Curb: Yeah. Oh, finishing projects.
Before the interview where you're telling me that you have, some tips for parents to help their kids hack their ADHD, could you, give me a little bit more on that?
Dr. Norrine Russell: Sure. Absolutely. So I love the title of this podcast, right? And it made me think this morning as I was preparing hack, you know, and I went and looked up, you know what I mean?
I know what hack means, right? But I, I went and looked, what's the dictionary definition of hack and how do we use it in our culture? And, you know, it got me thinking, one of the things that I think is important and I, I have three points here, to talk with parents about who might be listening. I know you have an adult audience and I'm going to assume some of them have kids with ADHD.
so three points for teaching your child to hack their ADHD brain. First, I'm a huge advocate for teaching your child about ADHD. When they're younger, there are great books, right? There are great social stories. There are great books in the library, great books, you know, on online retailers. Be upfront and honest with your students about how their brain works.
A lot of parents hesitate to do this because they think, oh, this gives them an excuse. Well, the thing is, if you don't teach them to understand, then they can't work it. And we know that in every other area of life, you wouldn't give a kid a lawnmower and not teach them how to use it. We don't give the kid keys to the car. We don't give the kid a phone without setting expectations about how you're going to use this and setting limitations. And we need to do the same thing with our brains and we do it also with their hearts and their souls, right? We teach them emotionally. Oh, you know, you're someone who is deeply affected by movies. You're someone who cares a lot about your friends. And so my first point is to teach your kid about their brain the same way we, you know if we're talking about computer hacking, you gotta teach the kid how to turn the computer on, right?
I think the second piece gives your kid. Permission to hack. Try and see what works, you know, you think about sort of that quintessential computer hacker right there in there late at night, they're trying to break through the security code. You know, they're trying to figure out what's a novel way to do this. What's a different way to approach this. They are in essence, playing and experimenting.
They are figuring out what's going to work. And I think as parents of kids with ADHD, we need to say the same thing. You know what I don't necessarily know what's going to work for you to keep the Legos organized and off the floor. I don't necessarily know what's going to help you remember to turn in the permission slip, let's try this. What's your idea about how to do it. I had all these fancy ideas about Legos. Oh. They were going to be sorted by color, by shape, by size. And my son cut through all the BS and was like, mom, can we just scoop them into some really big tubs? Like the kind of tubs, you move in, right? Like huge, enormous, tubs that you store holiday decor in. Was like all the Legos together. Not sorted. He's like, yeah, mom. Cause that's how I use them. I was like, okay, sure. But I had to be open to that, right? I had to have permission to figure out how do we hack this situation so it works for him. He didn't care. It didn't help him that they sorted by color and shape. That's a whole year of my life I lost from age three to six, right?
So giving them permission to have let's play around with it. Let's figure out what's going to help you and let's stay away from shaming and blaming when it doesn't work. If you don't remember to turn in the permission slip if you don't remember to bring home the folder. Okay, well, you know what, that's going to happen sometimes. What are some ideas for how you can remember next time? So giving permission to hack after you teach your kid how ADHD works.
And then I think the third thing is hack with them. Sit down, watch some YouTube videos about ADHD, find you tubers that you like, who talk about ADHD, and educate about ADHD.
Share with your son or daughter, Hey, you know, this is a problem that I had when it came to my brain and this is how I solved it. I know for me, I'm constantly talking to my kids that my worst executive functioning skill is flexibility. I don't like to be flexible. I like things to go my way. I am not amenable to last-minute changes if it's in my head a certain way, that's the way I want it.
And sometimes I'll just say to them, I'm being inflexible, right now, And you might be being a little bit inflexible too, but I'm the adult. And I need to go take five minutes and figure out how I can be flexible in this situation. So I think hacking with your child and role modeling, how do we learn? How do we try possible strategies and then using some reflection time to figure out how did that go? You know, did that work? Is that useful? How do we remember to do it next time?
So, those were my thoughts this morning, teach your kid about the ADHD brain so they've got the basics. They know how to turn the computer on. They know the basic wiring of the computer or the phone or the lawnmower or the car, right? Give them permission to hack, play around, figure it out. Don't be like me feeling guilty for 10 years that you had papers back though over your desk, you know? Say, you get to choose how you organize this. You get to choose whether you want to take a shower, then do your homework, then he dinner or eat dinner, do your homework, take a shower. You get to choose, figure out what works best for you. And then hack with them, you know, learn their brain like you've had to learn your own. And so those are my thoughts this morning. I was thinking about this metaphor of hack your ADHD brain, and it's really all about learning. As you said your brain, because not every ADHD brain is the same.
And especially for the kids, we see who have something else going on, anxiety, depression, learning difference autism. you've really got to get in there and know your individual brain.
William Curb: Yeah. And I mean, it sounds like there's so much making sure you're staying in curiosity there where it's really easy to fall out.
I know what to do. This is what we're gonna do. But stepping back, what are the questions I can ask? Especially with that learning what works, you're going to have a lot of things that don't work and you're going to have to, that's been like, that's not a bad thing. You know this is Thomas Edison.
I've just learned a hundred ways not to make a light bulb.
Dr. Norrine Russell: 100%. I was observing a coach last night and writing feedback to our team. And I was saying, What I saw Alicia do in this difficult moment was to stay curious and stay neutral, curious, and neutral. How did that work? You know, what went well, what didn't go so well, would you approach it the same way next time?
Because that series of questions you're asking is what becomes their inner dialogue, giving them the solution. You know, we go back to the give a person, a fish or teach them to fish. If you teach them the questions to ask, then when they're 25 and they're trying to figure out, oh, you know, I'm moving to a foreign country, how do I open a bank account? They can think back and say, okay, how do we learn about bank accounts? What do I do when I have a problem? And I need information, who do I go to? Where do I go? You know, the questions that we ask as adults of kids with ADHD. Become their inner voice, the same way, our affirmations and our statements of love and concern become their inner voice.
And so that neutral, curious mode that you're talking about is so vital.
William Curb: Yeah. And it's also important to me. It's can be very hard to stay in that mode, especially with parenting difficulties. There's I can think of so many examples where I'm trying to be curious, like kids being like, okay, what do you think we should do in this situation?
And then. I dunno. And then I'm like, well, now I can give you the answer. I'm like, then later I'm like, that's slow down.
Dr. Norrine Russell: It's it's very hard. I think parenting children with ADHD is infinitely more difficult than people realize. You know, we have a very strong cultural message in this country. That Is, oh, everybody has a little ADHD or, you know, try harder.
People don't realize when your child has moderate or severe ADHD. And then especially when they have something else that, that permeates every moment of your day parenting. It does. and it is difficult. And I think we vastly underestimate and do not provide nearly enough support to parents of kids with ADHD, especially in those early years when you're trying to figure them out.
William Curb: Yeah. So it, and then along with those lines, those kinds of like, what are some of the things that parents are doing that they think are helping, but aren't?
Dr. Norrine Russell: I think any of those statements along the lines of, You just have to figure it out. You have to focus, you know, no one can do it for you sort of reiterating the effort message instead of the strategy message.
I think that's something that parents do from a good place, but it's not helpful to the student because the question we really need to say is how can you get started on that right? And how can I help you get started on it? Not what has to get done, which I'm guilty of as well. I think another thing that parents may not realize is the importance of a team.
You need a complete treatment team. You need your people at school, and yourpeople outside school, the American academy of pediatrics is very clear. Multimodal therapy and treatment is what is most effective. Multimodal means more than one mode, right? So you're going to need your school plan.
You're going to need parent education. You're going to need, a medical person on your team. and so just understanding that your ADHD kid has a chronic condition that can not be overcome by willpower. They can learn strategies, don't get me wrong, but it cannot be overcome by willpower. And so I think that's another piece is the importance of the team.
And then I think lastly, you know, really appreciating your son or daughter for who they are with their ADHD. my kids are. Crazy curious people and they read like maniacs and they are so hyper-focused on their areas of focus. And honestly, I love it. I think it's fascinating. they're not typical kids in any way, but I love that they have these deep areas of interest and they dive right into things. And, you know, we just got my son a, saw and a drill and he is just over there kind of impulsively going to town. Figuring out if he could use the drill as a way to take things apart, I'm like, no, it's not gonna work like that.
He's like, I'm going to try. Okay. All right. You know what? I love your perseverance. I love your curiosity. And so I think that's the third thing is ADHD. Kids get a lot of negative feedback and those of you who are listening have ADHD, you know, that, you know, the kinds of messages you heard. And so. Let's make sure that that's getting balanced with today's generation of ADHD, kids with positive strengths-based affirmations.
William Curb: Yeah, I think that's great. The number of negative messages. It's I trying to remember a study I saw, but it's just like 10 times the number of negative messages and that's really. Drilled into your head, that everything you do, it's going to be wrong. And then your response to any kind of criticism is like, oh no, you know, you get this perfectionism that's really toxic.
Dr. Norrine Russell: Yeah. Yes, yes. And then, you know, by the time we reach middle school, kids begin to lie as a way of coping. They know that they have. Kind of achieved or performed and so, they begin to fight flight freeze, fib, , and, and fitting is, is one of the coping mechanisms when people are overwhelmed and that feeling of just never being enough.
We're definitely seeing that emerge in my 13 year old right now. Like, everything I do is wrong. I'm like, oh, child, No, it's absolutely not. And there's so many things that are wonderful and amazing about you, but you know, when you have that realization that I struggle with stuff and I have to try hard in these areas.
Sometimes it can feel like you're not good enough. and the thing is you are, you are good enough and okay. I think our struggle right now, as parents with him is, you know what? You are more than good enough. It doesn't matter if these are your struggles. But we all, as adults have to kind of commit to seeing ADHD through a neurodevelopmental lens and not throw a behavioral lens.
William Curb: Yeah, cause even as we, get older, it's, you're still gonna have that delay for a long time. and honestly, it doesn't seem like you ever reached the same levels for executive function as neurotypicals, but that's, again, that's reality. That's just how you have to do things differently for your brain.
But it's really important to acknowledge that that delays there.
Dr. Norrine Russell: Absolutely, absolutely. 100%. If, if you are, An ADHD parent and you see that, your child may have ADHD. I'm just a huge advocate of let's know, let's do the evaluation. Let's know, and then let's educate them.
William Curb: So, this has been a great conversation. I've really appreciated you taking the time to talk to me. where can people find out more about, your coaching practice?, and just so people know this, I know you guys do, online coaching as well.
Dr. Norrine Russell: we do, we have, and very effective online coaching practice. So we work with students across the United States and Canada. And information about our practice can be found at russellcoaching.com and we have a Facebook page and you can Google Russell coaching and consulting, and you'll find us on Facebook.
And then on Instagram at Russell coaching, LLC. And we work with middle school through college students and the platform is zoom it's one-on-one. We don't do groups or classes. We don't find that to be effective when it comes to coaching. And primarily again, yes, we have some kids who. are what diagnosticians would call simple ADHD that is uncomplicated ADHD. It's just the ADHD, but where I think we've developed real expertise is in kids who are complex, who have a friend, as you say, that comes along with the ADHD. So our methods are very relational, collaborative, nurturing. But designed to set that student up, to learn how to work their own brain and to feel great about it.
William Curb: Awesome. Well, again, thank you. do you have anything else you want to add before we go?
Dr. Norrine Russell: I just want to say thank you for having me on. I have had a great morning thinking about this idea of hacking your brain. I'm anxious to maybe do a little blogging, on my website at russellcoaching.com and talking about how do you help your kid hack their ADHD? I love it. So I'm appreciative of the opportunity to come on. I know you have an adult audience and you don't do interviews a lot, and I am thankful to you for inviting me on today. And it's been great to talk with you.
This Episode’s Top Tips
Learn about your ADHD - if you don't understand it, then they can't work it. Work on learning how your brain works so that you can best work with it.
Give yourself permission to see what works. Often we get caught up in the idea that if we try something then we are going to have to do it forever - instead, we should be thinking about how we can make progress through trial and error.
Work with others to Hack your ADHD, because while it's great to see what we can come up with on our own there are tons of resources out there that can also help you.
Links from this Episode
